Kick in the teeth for medics

[penfold93]

Having noted that some trades have managed to justify their rise to a higher pay band it is noted that some trades are not as fortunate. Here is an excerpt from the letter from Med Pol

Despite the extensive time and effort expended in this process by those interviewed, no change will be made in the pay range and all ranks (SAC – WO) scored in the Lower Pay Range

Now before we start off on a trade bashing route please do not base any decisions on just the 'i have had a bad experience at a Med Centre' level, please remember that a lot of these medics male and female put their lives on the line on a daily basis OOA to save others, the paramedic of the year was RAF, so I feel it is a bit harsh that they do not get any real financial award for their efforts and is it surprising the trade is undermanned.

So if any fellow medical goaters would like to feed back and other members what are your views (please remember this is a public forum so would appreciate constructive responses)

[WindYerNeckIn]

To be fair penfold,

im not even sure what different types of the medical branch there are?


I know there is a medical assistant - are you/they paramedic trained>?


and I know of medical officer thats about it sorry! can you expand?


If all medics are paramedic trained then perhaps a high payband is in order as i have a close friend who is undergoing her civilian paramedic course, not for me I can tell you. a lot of pressure and not a lot of pay.


Im also aware of the PMRNS are they under the medic trade as well or serperate? are they the ones who do the OOA medivac teams>? they should deffo be on IMHO.


like you I dont want a start a trade war, just more info as im not sure how many level/types of medic there are.

cheers.

[penfold93]

TG 15 includes any trade on the medical side of life so

Medics (assistants and administrators)
Environmental Health
ODP's (Theatre Techs)
Lab Techs
Pharmacy Techs
Radiographers
Princess Marys Royal Air Force Nursing Service (PMRAFNS) (General Nurse and Mental Health).

The pay structure is also different for each trade in the branch so whilst all nurses are on the higher payband not all ranks fo ODP are (FS on lower payband)

Aeromed is done by both Medics and nurses

[MontyPlumbs]

TG 15 includes any trade on the medical side of life so

Medics (assistants and administrators)
Environmental Health
ODP's (Theatre Techs)
Lab Techs
Pharmacy Techs
Radiographers
Princess Marys Royal Air Force Nursing Service (PMRAFNS) (General Nurse and Mental Health).

The pay structure is also different for each trade in the branch so whilst all nurses are on the higher payband not all ranks fo ODP are (FS on lower payband)

Aeromed is done by both Medics and nurses

I assume Pharm techs are on the higher pay band? If not, that surely needs to be looked at.

[penfold93]

I assume Pharm techs are on the higher pay band? If not, that surely needs to be looked at.

They sure are as are radiographers and Lab techs, theatre tech it depends on you rank as already stated, nurses on higher band too

[MontyPlumbs]

I must say it just illustrates the point about how good your trade sponsor is at getting the point across - not generally whether or not the trade deserves it. Medics definitely should be on the higher pay band, although I'm not convinced anyone on the med admin side should be.

[muttywhitedog]

Is it still the case that Medics do not do guard duties? If so, that may well be a stumbling block towards you not getting upgraded.

[penfold93]

Depends on the station, they did in Aki

[Boarderlyne]

Depends on the station, they did in Aki And they do at Lyne... The medics lost their favoured status back in 1994 when all new Med Admins and non-commissioned Medical Trades were thrown into the SSGF pot. The old and bold still had an exemption but many waived their right as the exemption only lasted until the next time they signed on!

[SirSaltyHelmet]

To be honest Penfold, why should all medics go up just be cause some are paramedic trained?

Get the AFPRB to give paramedic pay to those who are in a paramedic job.

Does the guy who is not a paramedic that sits on reception deserving the same pay as a paramedic?

[penfold93]

To be honest Penfold, why should all medics go up just be cause some are paramedic trained?

Get the AFPRB to give paramedic pay to those who are in a paramedic job.

Does the guy who is not a paramedic that sits on reception deserving the same pay as a paramedic?



Agree SSH and it would probably be the Jnr Ranks that would benefit as they probably do the lions share, but same could be said for stackers and cooks, warming up beans and blanket folding aint rocket science (I know they do a lot more than that) but they are on a higher pay band. I just feel that the trade as a whole has been let down by those whose job it was to argue the case. Unlike supply, coppers and chefs :S

[Get Tae]

that a lot of these medics male and female put their lives on the line on a daily basis OOA to save others, the paramedic of the year was RAF, so I feel it is a bit harsh that they do not get any real financial award for their efforts and is it surprising the trade is undermanned.

Plenty put thier lives on the line OOA every day not just medics and as for financial award, its called Op Allowance and LSSA the same as everyone else.

[penfold93]

Plenty put thier lives on the line OOA every day not just medics and as for financial award, its called Op Allowance and LSSA the same as everyone else.

Most of the RAF personnel that do are usually on the higher pay band, yeah we all get the allowances but the financial award to recognise the work they do as their trade not just OOA

[Disillusioned]

Most of the RAF personnel that do are usually on the higher pay band, yeah we all get the allowances but the financial award to recognise the work they do as their trade not just OOA


Since when were most of the personnel OOA on higher pay band? Is it because the majority of personnel OOA are techies who deserve the higher pay band?

[Rammy]

Currently, there is a large discrepancy between numbers of trained Paramedics (PMs) and regular 'Medics'. The RAF want more PMs and are widening the criteria for 'Medics' to undertake PM training. When the PM cadre accounts for a larger percentage of the 'Medic' trade then another pay review will take place and it is widely expected for PMs to gain a pay rise on a par with technical trades.

Personally, I see this as the death knoll for 'Medics' who don't or can't convert to PM. The Medic trade will die and be reborn as the professionally recognised and accountable Paramedic Trade and routine medical administration will be carried out be remaining TG 17 staff and civvies.

That's what I think anyway.

It's just natural change that's been long overdue. The hard part will be retaining trained PMs who'll spend a significant amount of their Service OOA.

If I were a Cpl Medic with a clean driving licence, I'd be doing all I could to secure myself some PM training, bite the bullet of extended periods OOA and bang out into civvy street as quick as I could.

Good luck to them.

[irishlogster]

Agree SSH and it would probably be the Jnr Ranks that would benefit as they probably do the lions share, but same could be said for stackers and cooks, warming up beans and blanket folding aint rocket science (I know they do a lot more than that) but they are on a higher pay band. I just feel that the trade as a whole has been let down by those whose job it was to argue the case. Unlike supply, coppers and chefs :S

Penfold,
No idea who told you us stackers were on a high payband??? That is not true.

[mememe]

Having noted that some trades have managed to justify their rise to a higher pay band it is noted that some trades are not as fortunate. Here is an excerpt from the letter from Med Pol



Now before we start off on a trade bashing route please do not base any decisions on just the 'i have had a bad experience at a Med Centre' level, please remember that a lot of these medics male and female put their lives on the line on a daily basis OOA to save others, the paramedic of the year was RAF, so I feel it is a bit harsh that they do not get any real financial award for their efforts and is it surprising the trade is undermanned.

So if any fellow medical goaters would like to feed back and other members what are your views (please remember this is a public forum so would appreciate constructive responses)

Nice One Pen. This has opened the debate and has canvassed the opinion of many. Just a personal opinion, however, there is always going to be the situation, " how come they got it and we didn't" attitude. Most recently...CPL AND FS MT drivers going into the high pay band. That is just there to add a little spice to the debate. Also I would be interested to know how managers would keep their staff motivated when the see said MT drivers being increased (no disrespect).
P.S I can drive a truck and eat a yorkie! Only joking..Good on em! perhaps the trades should adopt their trade sponsors as they have done a superb job for them. Well done.

[MontyPlumbs]

Nice One Pen. This has opened the debate and has canvassed the opinion of many. Just a personal opinion, however, there is always going to be the situation, " how come they got it and we didn't" attitude. Most recently...CPL AND FS MT drivers going into the high pay band. That is just there to add a little spice to the debate. Also I would be interested to know how managers would keep their staff motivated when the see said MT drivers being increased (no disrespect).
P.S I can drive a truck and eat a yorkie! Only joking..Good on em! perhaps the trades should adopt their trade sponsors as they have done a superb job for them. Well done.

This has been discussed before when we mooted the point of floating everyone to the high pay band then giving people financial rewards based on the type of job they are doing.

For example, a sootie Corporal working on a front line Tornado squadron and a sootie Corporal working in an AFCO. Do they deserve to get paid exactly the same?

Interesting issue, this thread is just the tip of the iceberg (across ALL trades).

[metimmee]

For example, a sootie Corporal working on a front line Tornado squadron and a sootie Corporal working in an AFCO. Do they deserve to get paid exactly the same?

Interesting issue, this thread is just the tip of the iceberg (across ALL trades).

Tricky one that. Does 1st line Cpl deserve a pay-cut because he's posted against his will to somewhere that doesnt get enhancements?

[MontyPlumbs]

Tricky one that. Does 1st line Cpl deserve a pay-cut because he's posted against his will to somewhere that doesnt get enhancements?

Again, good point, I was using the AFCO as an example - I don't think you'll find many people get posted to an AFCO against their will! :PDT_Xtremez_28:

[oddshaped balls]

I must say it just illustrates the point about how good your trade sponsor is at getting the point across - not generally whether or not the trade deserves it. Medics definitely should be on the higher pay band, although I'm not convinced anyone on the med admin side should be.


Monty

The result of the trade review has nothing to do with the Trade Sponsor. The decision is taken by SP Pol at MOD based on the lengthy interviews undertaken with the individaul tradesmen / woman from across the rank ranges. Therefore, based on what they have said and how the classify their work leads the Joint Service Job Evaluation Team to its decision making process. Obviously the trade is not good enough and the fact that it scored in the lower band across all rank ranges is testimony to this. Maybe penfold chose a bit of a statement just to generate debate and mislead others.

Clearly the trade was not good enough on this occasion and the rest of the letter from Med Pers Pol identifies how they are going to make the trade better for future job evaluations the first of which will be in 5 years.

[renegade]

Agree SSH and it would probably be the Jnr Ranks that would benefit as they probably do the lions share, but same could be said for stackers and cooks, warming up beans and blanket folding aint rocket science (I know they do a lot more than that) but they are on a higher pay band. I just feel that the trade as a whole has been let down by those whose job it was to argue the case. Unlike supply, coppers and chefs :S

Right, Stackers and Chefs are not on the higher pay band, chefs were, but when RAFP had our pay review in 2006, we got the higher band, chefs lost out. The RMP and RNP are on the higher pay band, so it was obvious we would get it, now, without hesitation I agree paramedics indeed go through hell in OOA operations, but for SAC medics, who spend their time doing admin (I know loads of medics who leave for this reason) and wonder why they're not being awarded the higher pay band....have a word, paramedics, yes, deserved, through extra training and nature of job alone SHOULD justify it. As for us coppers, well you're always going to have a pop lol...

[dantura]

Stackers are about to have a review now.

I spoke to the trade sponser a few weeks ago, who told me that SAC to F/S was put forward for a review, but was refused and told all ranks or none at all. This means that WO's (currently on high band), could in effect go down a band!!!

D

[skevans]

This whole thread has annoyed me. Not for what it is, more for what it isn't.

It isn't a fair recgnition of the medical trades, nor is it balanced by others.

[sic]do medics do guard[sic]And they do at Lyne... The medics lost their favoured status back in 1994 when all new Med Admins and non-commissioned Medical Trades were thrown into the SSGF pot. The old and bold still had an exemption but many waived their right as the exemption only lasted until the next time they signed on!

There was a review of the Geneva Convention in the early 1990's based on the events of the 1st Gulf War. The medical services as a whole are not a legitimate target, however each individual 'could' be perceived as a threat as they are required to defend their patients, therefore becoming a combatant. Following this the medical tradesmen who renewed their contracts or joined up are eligible for armed duties.

Agree SSH and it would probably be the Jnr Ranks that would benefit as they probably do the lions share, but same could be said for stackers and cooks, warming up beans and blanket folding aint rocket science (I know they do a lot more than that) but they are on a higher pay band. I just feel that the trade as a whole has been let down by those whose job it was to argue the case. Unlike supply, coppers and chefs :S

Once again I do agree. I was sent a study for my trade and was told that if it were down to my one study the entire firefighter trade would raise to the higher level, however I represent 1:540 so that couldn't happen as you should be 1:20. Somewhere my colleagues failed to win their own arguements.

Plenty put thier lives on the line OOA every day not just medics and as for financial award, its called Op Allowance and LSSA the same as everyone else.

As much as it pains me to admit it, GT is right. Damn I agreed with a tecjie in public!

Most of the RAF personnel that do are usually on the higher pay band, yeah we all get the allowances but the financial award to recognise the work they do as their trade not just OOA

I beg to differ in the strongest terms. My firefighters and I have risked our lives on the lowest pay band with no allowances beyond normal for the operations we have undertaken. Our commitment at scene is not based on monetary reparations, but complete and total life saving analysis.

Unnusually for me, I am more than willing to argue this particular point at length in person.

Most recently...

Well a year ago anyway!

CPL AND FS MT drivers going into the high pay band.[/QUOTE]

Actually that was Cpl's and WO's.

That is just there to add a little spice to the debate. Old news.

Also I would be interested to know how managers would keep their staff motivated when they see said MT drivers being increased (no disrespect).

So you think every Cpl or WO should PVR based on someone else being paid more?

P.S I can drive a truck and eat a yorkie! Only joking..BORING

Good on em! perhaps the trades should adopt their trade sponsors as they have done a superb job for them. Well done.

At long last you speak some sense.

Every trade is valuable to todays RAF. So why do we contnue to bash them?

The RAF of today is as [fr]agile and dependable as the Ministers want. Every trade is undermanned, and therfore outgunned.

Stop arguing why your paid as little as you are and start asking to be paid more.

[skevans]

Stackers are about to have a review now.

I spoke to the trade sponser a few weeks ago, who told me that SAC to F/S was put forward for a review, but was refused and told all ranks or none at all. This means that WO's (currently on high band), could in effect go down a band!!!

D

It isn't down to the trade sponsor, he is merely an administrative focal point for the JSJET. Howevr he might be able to determine where the original surveys are sent to!

[dantura]

It isn't down to the trade sponsor, he is merely an administrative focal point for the JSJET. Howevr he might be able to determine where the original surveys are sent to!

Sorry, didn't make it clear. The trade sponsor merely told me that SAC to F/S was originally put forward, not that she put it forward personally.
She was, in her capacity, ascertaining who was to be interviewed by JSJET, by evaluating individual jobs, at the time.


D

[Oracle]

, without hesitation I agree paramedics indeed go through hell in OOA operations, but for SAC medics, who spend their time doing admin (I know loads of medics who leave for this reason) and wonder why they're not being awarded the higher pay band....lol...

To balance the situation, many med admin?Med Asst are also out of area "going through hell", The paramedic is only a recent qualification in the RAF that has come about to provider a higher standard of care to the troops on the ground. Currently they are only employed on Ops in Afghanistan as part of the MERT teams (Forward aeromedical evacuation). The role of IRT in Iraq, (also Forward aeromedical evacuation) is undertaken by basic med admin / med asst. The Paramedic course is an extension of trade duties, all med admin / med Asst personnel can be called upon as part of their primary duties to carry out medical treatment and those suitably qualified can also undertake all forms of aeromedical evacuation (AE) including forward AE such as IRT and MERT, Tactical AE (IE intratheatre evacuation on C130 airframe), Part of CCAST (Critical Care Air Support Team) both tactical and strategic, form part of strategic aeromedical teams evacuating patients worldwide and form part of the support system for AE worldwide. This is all in addition to the main roles of operational medical support be that in a medical centre or field hospital in both clinical, dispensing, crash rescue or administrative role.

The role of the medic is varied and often misunderstood, the only role above that carries any extra pay currently is aeromedical pay which is only payable as a daily rate for those days spent on actual flying duties. There are many medics out there of varying abilities, but that medic sat on reception is also the medic who may have recently been treatingbcasualties in the IRT chopper in Iraq, just because of where he/she sits doesn't define his/her skills.

The paramedic role is a new concept to the RAF and a lot of the policy has yet to reach maturity. Initial thinking was that paramedics would form a small cadre of about 60 personnel with some of those being reservists and the medic trade would rotate around those roles, ie after training you would complete up to five years in Paramedic role and then return to mainstream duties. Also the employment strategy calls for differing employment, these paramedics are still medical administrators with an additional Q, they will still carry out mainstream duties or maintain currency with NHS trust ambulances when not deployed. The big question is then should only the paramedics deserve the pay when on paramedic duties, should they lose it when returning to mainstream duties, for paramedics in med centres should they get lower or higher pay band. Until paramedic is a separate trade it is still an additional qualification and the issue of low / high pay band will be a thorny one, and until operational medical support roles and AE are fulfilled by solely paramedics there will still remain the aspiration for the whole trade to be upbanded.
::P:

[Ex-Bay]

This may be a bit Off Topic but I wonder about the following:-

At one time, the med trades was relatively simple. Doctors were Officers and Nurses were Other Ranks, presumably because Doctors have degrees.
What would happen if a Nurse joined who has the Nursing Degree and what would be the effect on Pay Band?

Just a thought.

::/:

[The Masked Geek]

So, let me get this right.

Chip burners are on the high payband and those that can fix my dehli belly are on the lower.....Something wrong there.

[DE Scumbag]

This may be a bit Off Topic but I wonder about the following:-

At one time, the med trades was relatively simple. Doctors were Officers and Nurses were Other Ranks, presumably because Doctors have degrees.
What would happen if a Nurse joined who has the Nursing Degree and what would be the effect on Pay Band?

Just a thought.

::/:


My understanding was that there were different grades of nurse , SEN and SRN, one was commissioned the other wasn't. I could be wrong, but my old fella was a FS medic for 38 yrs and its what he told me (I think).

Only trying to help.

[Oracle]

This may be a bit Off Topic but I wonder about the following:-

At one time, the med trades was relatively simple. Doctors were Officers and Nurses were Other Ranks, presumably because Doctors have degrees.
What would happen if a Nurse joined who has the Nursing Degree and what would be the effect on Pay Band?

Just a thought.

::/:

Nurses now RGN, (SEN and SRN are defunct titles) regardless of degree or diploma qualification level can serve non commissioned in both cases on the higher payband. There are also Nurses who are commissioned however not sure of the state of play for commissioned nurses with regard to degree, don't think they need it bu don't quote me.

[Moz_Magister]

Whatever they are given at the moment anyone who goes OOA with bandages instead of a rifle deserves more money.

It would be a dangerous place without them. ;)

[Oracle]

Whatever they are given at the moment anyone who goes OOA with bandages instead of a rifle deserves more money.

It would be a dangerous place without them. ;)

Moz, we still take the rifle, its just that the rules governing how we can use it that differ.

[Ex-Bay]

Moz, we still take the rifle, its just that the rules governing how we can use it that differ.

Is that for "only in self-defence"?

[filops]

These guys for years have tried to get training on a par with civilian paramedics a lot disillusioned once they have joined up that this is not the case. Before anyone shouts I am not a medic but bear in mind who is it in the cabs with the aircrew hauling out our injured. Civilian medics do not get mortared unless RAUXAF and trust me they are finicially compensated for it. The job on base maybe mundane but OOA these guys earn their money. I agree trade sponsor needs to fight harder for them. Check out a medics medals in comparison to higher up it is embarassing !!!

[ninjarabbi]

You said it all there. I'm about to go OOA to the med centre at kandahar and that's going to be medal number 11 for me. I'm sat at a lovely little place in the south of England surrounded by much more important people who have a Queens Jubilee and an LSGCM and that's about it. Medics, Chefs, RAF Regt do seem to be on the top of the list far more than some trades (apologies to any I've left out, I know some have it even worse).

[billy bollox]

Is it still the case that Medics do not do guard duties? If so, that may well be a stumbling block towards you not getting upgraded.

Medics are armed guards now. My missus is a medic and when in Basrah she had side arm as well as rifle. Its meant not for attack but self protection of themselves AND their patients.

I think a chef who counts peas is less versitile to what a medic can do but then I'm biased

[RAF_Nurse!]

Nurses (now RGN, SEN and SRN are defunct titles) regardless of degree or diploma qualification level can serve non commissioned in both cases on the higher payband. There are also Nurses who are commissioned however not sure of the state of play for commissioned nurses with regard to degree, don't think they need it bu don't quote me.

The term RGN is still used by the PMRAFNS to put a name to the trade group for Non-Officer nurses (i.e. Staff Nurse RGN, Tg15). All nurses, irrespective of rank (inc. students) are designated the high pay banding.

OR and Officer nurses can and do have both Diploma's and Degree's.....I've got two of one and one of the other (plus the odd HND!)

[Moz_Magister]

I think a chef who counts peas is less versitile to what a medic can do but then I'm biased

Damn right,

I can cook my own tea but I can't stick my own leg back on.