Trade Review

[Shiney Pencil]

The jungle drums have been beating again and this one is fresh from the corridors of power. Allegedly one of the reasons the trade review is delayed is because to increase the promotion to Sgt and all other ranks they wer may be taking on the posts that the army are struggling to fill, so basically it could be a total army unit and a token RAF clerk.

Personally I think its a good idea, the downsides crap army accom and the army mentality thrust upon you.

Any comments?

[vinnyvx]

It ain't the reason from what I've heard. The delay maybe good for the trade though... watch this space.

[Shiney Pencil]

Come on then spill the beans!

[BlahBlah]

Yeah come Viinny. Spill the beans...........

What insight have you had?

[woollymouse]

I wait with baited breath but don't expect much before I return to work after my baby leave in March next year. It is TG17 after all and we do man handbrake house.

[Boarderlyne]

I wait with baited breath but don't expect much before I return to work after my baby leave in March next year. It is TG17 after all and we do man handbrake house.Handbrake House? I always thought it was Heartbreak House as it breaks your heart to see what the politicos have done to the trade and the Service in general.

[busby1971]

The jungle drums have been beating again and this one is fresh from the corridors of power. Allegedly one of the reasons the trade review is delayed is because to increase the promotion to Sgt and all other ranks they wer may be taking on the posts that the army are struggling to fill, so basically it could be a total army unit and a token RAF clerk.

Personally I think its a good idea, the downsides crap army accom and the army mentality thrust upon you.

Any comments?

If you think it's a good idea [to work with the army as the token blue job] then I guess you've not been a token blue job before. If you want both promotion and to work within an army environment, and no longer feel the need to be a treated as a valued member of society and respected for your experience and points of view then you could always move over on a more permanent basis.

Most others probably think other wise.:PDT_Xtremez_25:

[Woodja]

The jungle drums have been beating again and this one is fresh from the corridors of power. Allegedly one of the reasons the trade review is delayed is because to increase the promotion to Sgt and all other ranks they wer may be taking on the posts that the army are struggling to fill, so basically it could be a total army unit and a token RAF clerk.

Personally I think its a good idea, the downsides crap army accom and the army mentality thrust upon you.

Any comments?

I know that my Chf Clk is going to Basra later this year to fill an Army slot (should be fun for him!)

[Shiney Pencil]

If you think it's a good idea [to work with the army as the token blue job] then I guess you've not been a token blue job before. If you want both promotion and to work within an army environment, and no longer feel the need to be a treated as a valued member of society and respected for your experience and points of view then you could always move over on a more permanent basis.

Most others probably think other wise.:PDT_Xtremez_25:

Busby

You are correct that I have not been a token blue job and I have no desire to go green full time. I think this idea would be a good to free more promotion up however others, like yourself, will disagree.

[busby1971]

Busby

You are correct that I have not been a token blue job and I have no desire to go green full time. I think this idea would be a good to free more promotion up however others, like yourself, will disagree.

Volunteer to work with our own RAF Regt to get a small taste of what the life would be like, this would not be as bad as working with (for) the army but will result in equally poor chance of future advancement due to the differences in F6000 compilation.

We might be taking up a few of their OOA posts, but we are starting to get stretched too in this area, the taking up of posts based on trade rather than service is a move towards a Defence Support Corp that I'm sure nobody would like to see.

[muttywhitedog]

Volunteer to work with our own RAF Regt to get a small taste of what the life would be like, this would not be as bad as working with (for) the army but will result in equally poor chance of future advancement due to the differences in F6000 compilation.

We might be taking up a few of their OOA posts, but we are starting to get stretched too in this area, the taking up of posts based on trade rather than service is a move towards a Defence Support Corp that I'm sure nobody would like to see.

I have had a 4 yr tour with the RAF Regt and a 4 month OOA with the Army. There is no comparison! The Rocks may call you a "guin", but deep down they appreciate you. The Army just cannot comprehend that we can get a job done with minimal fuss, a smile on our face, and no barking and shouting orders. In fact, towards the end of my OOA, I spent most of my days sat with junior soldiers surfing the RAF Careers website, because they'd had enough of being treated shabbily and wanted to transfer.

[busby1971]

I have had a 4 yr tour with the RAF Regt and a 4 month OOA with the Army. There is no comparison! The Rocks may call you a "guin", but deep down they appreciate you. The Army just cannot comprehend that we can get a job done with minimal fuss, a smile on our face, and no barking and shouting orders. In fact, towards the end of my OOA, I spent most of my days sat with junior soldiers surfing the RAF Careers website, because they'd had enough of being treated shabbily and wanted to transfer.

Thank you for backing up my view of Token blue job work, as I said RAF Regt only a small taste of what it's like wearing green all the time, at least you still get some respect and remain valued unlike working alongside (under army doctorine) the Army where you will always be untrusted and disrespected especially by their officer class no matter what your rank or experience, worth it for the promotion - reach for the PT/PVR applications more like.

[True Blue Jack]

Thank you for backing up my view of Token blue job work, as I said RAF Regt only a small taste of what it's like wearing green all the time, at least you still get some respect and remain valued unlike working alongside (under army doctorine) the Army where you will always be untrusted and disrespected especially by their officer class no matter what your rank or experience, worth it for the promotion - reach for the PT/PVR applications more like.

Busby, my experience of working with the Army during a recent OOA was very different. Every one of them from Private to Brigadier treated the RAF and RN personnel with respect bordering on trepidation, almost fear.

If one of them had a problem they would seek out one of us crabs rather than talk to one of their own Special Pen Service types. I also spent a lot of time with junior soldiers (and more than a few NCOs) browsing the RAF careers website.

[tobytyke]

So 5 pages of paper wasted. Didn't really tell us alot did it. Okay you will lose 133 slots but we are creating 1 new one.

Summarised are my key points:

a. The requirement to disestablish 133 posts in accordance with MTWS 05 has been confirmed.

b. Posts owners have been contacted and made aware of disestablishments. There is an opportunity to present alternative post savings.

c. The EVF moratorium remains in place until savings measures are realised.

d. Restructuring work to consider Admin (Sec) posts will commence early next year.

e. The TG17 recruiting target has been raised from 50 to 80 recruits for this FY and to 120 for FY 08/09.

f. Full review of training is underway and improvements have been implemented.

g. Increased opportunities for commissioning for all ranks.

Let the fallout begin!

[True Blue Jack]

It's OK - my Sqn has been royally screwed over. We are losing 2 stats posts, which is fair enough but we are also losing the SAC from my office. Why? Because she used to be in a Stats job which was civilianised 2 or 3 years ago when she came into the Sqn Admin Office. Some lazy piece of sh!t never raised the EVF so on paper it looks as though she is still in that Stats job.

When we pointed this out to our darling WO his answer was that she must have been mis-employed. Yeah, cheers boss. How many Sqn Admin Offices don't have a SAC? Ours from 1 Apr 08.

[Boarderlyne]

TBJ are you on BBMF? If so, then that explains why you are losing the SAC as it is easier for them to lose an adminer than to lose a techie when you deal with outdated aircraft specs. Oh bugger, I have just described the current situation with what we've got! :PDT_Xtremez_42:

[airforceone]

Anyone know why PAs are at the top of the list of TG17 post to go and yet AFCOs are untouchable? Surely everyone in the AFCO is trained the same so there is no particular advantage that a shiney brings to the table. Also, it may be the way I am reading it, but if the PA post goes (for anyone below 2 star) and EFV is frozen, you can't replace the blue-suit PA with a civvy and therefore Stn Cdrs effectively lose their PA. Or have I read it wrong?

[True Blue Jack]

Anyone know why PAs are at the top of the list of TG17 post to go and yet AFCOs are untouchable? Surely everyone in the AFCO is trained the same so there is no particular advantage that a shiney brings to the table. Also, it may be the way I am reading it, but if the PA post goes (for anyone below 2 star) and EFV is frozen, you can't replace the blue-suit PA with a civvy and therefore Stn Cdrs effectively lose their PA. Or have I read it wrong?

As I understand it the funding for Sgt PAs for Stn Cdrs is discontinued from 1 Apr 08. From then only MOB Stn Cdrs plus a handful of others will be entitled to Cpl PAs, the rest are civvies or nothing. However since a number of Stn Cdr's PA posts are gapped pending this trade review and others are filled by cpls acting up (wotcha Kernow!) it's mostly a case of making the paperwork match reality.

Stns have been directed to submit EVFs for disestablishment and/or downgrading of marked posts 4 weeks from now. People in those posts may be moved more or less any time from now, but in reality are probably safe until late Feb/early Mar. Recruiting for civil servants, FTRS or contractors may take place but the funding for the posts is not available until 1 Apr.

As for AFCOs I'm sure they were looked at closely and assume it was decided that an admin specialist is required. After all, there is a lot of paperwork and JPA action involved in processing an applicant. No doubt the various techies in AFCOs scream for help when they can't find their crayon. :PDT_Xtremez_15:

[Still-a-statty]

TBJ,
Are the Stats Posts getting binned across the board, I'm in a stats post on a Marham Sqn and have been told nothing thus far.:PDT_Xtremez_42:

[Shiny_Happy]

I'm on detachment at the moment in the back of beyond, with no JPA/Intranet etc. Where is this document to be found? If it is on some Chf Clks bulletin I should be able to make a few phone calls and get a copy, if not looks like I will have to carry on, oblivious as to whether there is a job waiting for me upon my return to the UK

[HappyG]

I have had a 4 yr tour with the RAF Regt and a 4 month OOA with the Army. There is no comparison! The Rocks may call you a "guin", but deep down they appreciate you. The Army just cannot comprehend that we can get a job done with minimal fuss, a smile on our face, and no barking and shouting orders. In fact, towards the end of my OOA, I spent most of my days sat with junior soldiers surfing the RAF Careers website, because they'd had enough of being treated shabbily and wanted to transfer.

Depends which service you provide for them, when you provide them with Helicopters to transport/support them in Ops they are very nice people................ You wanna watch out surfing the net with Junior soldiers people could get the wrong Idea...............

[True Blue Jack]

TBJ,
Are the Stats Posts getting binned across the board, I'm in a stats post on a Marham Sqn and have been told nothing thus far.:PDT_Xtremez_42:

I can't speak for other units but the way I read it is that stats posts will no longer be supported by TG17. There is scope for units to identify other savings than the ones currently earmarked so we may still retain a couple across the piste. Your WO PSF must know what is happening with your post so the best thing to do is ask him.


I'm on detachment at the moment in the back of beyond, with no JPA/Intranet etc. Where is this document to be found? If it is on some Chf Clks bulletin I should be able to make a few phone calls and get a copy, if not looks like I will have to carry on, oblivious as to whether there is a job waiting for me upon my return to the UK

I've only seen it hard-copy and it is marked R-M so you are unlikely to find it online anywhere. I don't expect anything much to happen until the New Year so you have plenty of time to find out whether you have a job or not. Where I am they are planning to absorb people on Unit.

[Kernow]

I can't speak for other units but the way I read it is that stats posts will no longer be supported by TG17. There is scope for units to identify other savings than the ones currently earmarked so we may still retain a couple across the piste. Your WO PSF must know what is happening with your post so the best thing to do is ask him.

PSF syndrome again, don't need to tell the populace what is happening.

I read it as well that Stats posts were to be binned across the board.

[tobytyke]

I have a soft copy that has no restrictions on it, if you want a copy PM me and I'll email it to you.

[johnwolf]

Spk to your Chf Clk, ours sent out the letter from ACOS A1 regarding the review. Basically, Most PA jobs (Except 2* and above) will be reduced (in rank) or removed, Stats will no longer be supported by TG17, Traditional Registries (what classed as trad these days?) no longer supported and only recommended General Admin Suport posts will be supported by the trade. Apart from that looks like all other posts are remaining.:PDT_Xtremez_25:

[Woodja]

It's good to see that the stats Q I picked up around 10 years ago is going to be binned without me ever getting near a stats job ;)

[Shiny_Happy]

Thanks for the offer tobytyke - managed to source a copy today from somewhere else. Interesting reading, and overall I am happier then I imagined I would be. Yes, we are losing a number of posts, and promotion will be slower in the medium term (particularly for us Cpls as they change the diamond to a pyramid), but the long-term future of the trade seems safer and brighter than I had hoped.

[ReluctantClerk]

Alternatively, here's a fantastic way to manage trade review business:- Send letters out to the highest ranks expecting them to disseminate info to line managers of/and those effected by the job losses. Don't worry if the heirachy in your chain aren't arsed to do this when your job is being binned in 08 because you can be sent a personal email from PSF telling you your job is going and then you can surprise/stun your line manager yourself with the news because they had no idea either!!!! :PDT_Xtremez_14: Sadly this has happened.

[vinnyvx]

Link to TG17 review for those on DII

http://stc/personal/benhamj805/Shared%20Documents/20070828-Specialisation%20Update-U.doc

Can't find a copy on any RAF internet site.

[woollymouse]

Anyone know why PAs are at the top of the list of TG17 post to go and yet AFCOs are untouchable? Surely everyone in the AFCO is trained the same so there is no particular advantage that a shiney brings to the table. Also, it may be the way I am reading it, but if the PA post goes (for anyone below 2 star) and EFV is frozen, you can't replace the blue-suit PA with a civvy and therefore Stn Cdrs effectively lose their PA. Or have I read it wrong?
The PA slots are going as the majority of them have already been civilized there are only a few hang outs left, the same is true for the stats slots, registries etc. The staff in the AFCO's might all be trained on the same course but the course does NOT relate to the admin side on the job. Come to think about it there is no training for the Adminers in the AFCO's which may explain a few things I've seen over the last year and a half.:PDT_Xtremez_42:

[tobytyke]

The A1 Staneval Team will be paying my unit a visit fairly soon it has just been anounced. Does anyone have anything they would like mentioning or asking!?

[Shiney]

Been on the Cards for a while. My units has not backfilled stats guys this year when either they or other Admins were posted. Overall, probably a good thing all round. No more misemployment of a SNCO as a secretary on PA duties. More jobs for Cpls. The only downside would be the lack of employment for SAC's outside of the PFA area. Thats not good for retention that one.

[Still-a-statty]

Not all Stats posts are for the chop, some posts in direct support of Sqn Docs Cells are to be retained as eng support jobs. Thats the case at my unit can't speak for others.:PDT_Xtremez_28:

[KingGuin]

Not all Stats posts are for the chop, some posts in direct support of Sqn Docs Cells are to be retained as eng support jobs. Thats the case at my unit can't speak for others.:PDT_Xtremez_28:

It is my understanding that those Stats posts may be filled by e.g. OVB other TGs but not TG17. If your Unit can employ you in that role then your Chf Clk must have a full compliment of troops. At my gaff I got my Statty (pre Redundancy) to train up a couple of downgraded OVB Techy types which, after a protest by the Eng Officers worked perfectly well.

[Still-a-statty]

It is my understanding that those Stats posts may be filled by e.g. OVB other TGs but not TG17. If your Unit can employ you in that role then your Chf Clk must have a full compliment of troops. At my gaff I got my Statty (pre Redundancy) to train up a couple of downgraded OVB Techy types which, after a protest by the Eng Officers worked perfectly well.

I currently spend at least 3 months deployed with the Sqn every year, downgraded techie types can't do that, also there will be no OVB left as of 1st April 08. If you can't deploy, my Sqn will not employ you. It doesn't make sense to have a highly trained Techie doing LITS, paperwork and general eng admin for six months at a time, when a stats clerk can do it on a full time basis. In statty posts you work for engineers, so it was an easy way to cut posts without upsetting the PSF mafia.::/:

[True Blue Jack]

I currently spend at least 3 months deployed with the Sqn every year, downgraded techie types can't do that, also there will be no OVB left as of 1st April 08. If you can't deploy, my Sqn will not employ you. It doesn't make sense to have a highly trained Techie doing LITS, paperwork and general eng admin for six months at a time, when a stats clerk can do it on a full time basis. In statty posts you work for engineers, so it was an easy way to cut posts without upsetting the PSF mafia.::/:

At the risk of upsetting you s-a-s, stats have not been a true TG17 job since MS Excel replaced the slide rule. If our trade is to have a future then it has to be within the PFA where we can big ourselves up as "HR Consultants".

Our engineers are none too happy about losing their statties but given the choice they would rather retain the guys in the registry and do their own stats.

[Still-a-statty]

TBJ, Not upset mate, I enjoy a lively debate. There appears to be a basic misconception as to what a Stats post, certainly on a Tornado Sqn actually involves. Technical paperwork clerk or even, dare I say it Data Analyst would be a more accure job title. I process and audit the vast amount of paperwork created by aircraft maintance and the wonderful LITS system (Techies JPA). This takes up 95% of my time, I usually only make up stats returns and the odd graph when deployed. The work is entirely clerical and is necessary to the smooth running of the Sqn Eng flt no matter where they deploy. I full agree that Stats post in Eng records are up for grabs as they do not require a serviceman. I am a clerk but I'm employed in a technical enviroment rather than HR, but everyone's got to fight there corner, so I respect everyone elses views as well..:PDT_Xtremez_30:

[busbyboy]

TBJ, Not upset mate, I enjoy a lively debate. There appears to be a basic misconception as to what a Stats post, certainly on a Tornado Sqn actually involves. Technical paperwork clerk or even, dare I say it Data Analyst would be a more accure job title. I process and audit the vast amount of paperwork created by aircraft maintance and the wonderful LITS system (Techies JPA). This takes up 95% of my time, I usually only make up stats returns and the odd graph when deployed. The work is entirely clerical and is necessary to the smooth running of the Sqn Eng flt no matter where they deploy. I full agree that Stats post in Eng records are up for grabs as they do not require a serviceman. I am a clerk but I'm employed in a technical enviroment rather than HR, but everyone's got to fight there corner, so I respect everyone elses views as well..:PDT_Xtremez_30:

Sorry, S-a-S, have to agree with KG and TBJ on this.

The technical (sic) difference between a highly trained Techie and a highly trained other bod, aka Pers Admin, escapes me. Whilst I do not dispute the job you are doing is worthwhile, it is not a job for TG17 in the current climate. Engineers can quite happily "assign" erks to Tea Bar duties and other misc activities, so there is no reason whatever why they cannot do their own stats. As KG has said, we did it at that Unit and after a prolonged whinging session, they got on with it after we said you either do it yourself or it doesn't get done, as we have not got the staff to do it for you (nor should we). After all, who does our Stats, Duties, Manning, Admin etc etc (old hobby horse of mine) - no answer required!

Good luck anyway.

[muttywhitedog]

Its only GR4s that have TG17 in Docs. I have been on Jags, Tonkas & Harriers and only Tonkas had admin bods in docs, and even then they were overseen by a TG1 or 2 SNCO.

Pretty sure F3s dont have them. Almost certain Typhoons dont.