Advice from P1 Types needed please...

[MattBombHead]

**Fascist mode on**

I have been informed this morning that one of my airmen does not have an ID card. He apparently 'lost' it around 3 months ago, and was issued a temporary ID card. This expired around 2 months ago.

Normally, this would not cause too much of a problem, but this particular airman is constantly in the sh!t, and its time it was brought to a stop.

So, can i just fizz him? What orders is he contravening?

Many thanks in advance for any help guys

**Fascist mode off**

[norfolkred1]

How bizzare, I ordered a new ID card less that a fortnight ago and low and behold it was ready in a week, this was for a replacement due to wear and tear but it was the same process, phot etc, as a lost or stolen.

1. Did he report it stolen to the RAFP, what action have they taken

2. What did he tell P1 about it, lost or stolen

3. You need to be a detctive on this one and make sure the littl shoite
is liying through his back teeth before you have any chance of
fizzing him, no dought the law is on his side for some stupid
reason, be careful..

[mightyhunter]

F**k this pinky-and-fluffy era we're in, just fizz him.
why is he continually in the sh!t?

[tommo9999]

What was he told to do?
What did he fail to do?
What rules did he break?
Are his previous indiscretions documented?

Get the answers to the above, and then proceed. Your P1 section should be able to help. They can give advice without the need for idetification of the individual.

[MattBombHead]

How bizzare, I ordered a new ID card less that a fortnight ago and low and behold it was ready in a week, this was for a replacement due to wear and tear but it was the same process, phot etc, as a lost or stolen.

1. Did he report it stolen to the RAFP, what action have they taken

2. What did he tell P1 about it, lost or stolen

3. You need to be a detctive on this one and make sure the littl shoite
is liying through his back teeth before you have any chance of
fizzing him, no dought the law is on his side for some stupid
reason, be careful..


What was he told to do?
What did he fail to do?
What rules did he break?
Are his previous indiscretions documented?

Get the answers to the above, and then proceed. Your P1 section should be able to help. They can give advice without the need for idetification of the individual.

He has been told to get a new ID sorted, and a new Temp ID by 1300hrs today. I suspect he will not have done this, as he is a lazy little sh!t. I'm just planning my next steps....

:PDT_Xtremez_14:

[The Sleepy Priest]

I suspect that he could have been charged under sect 69 of the air force act, which is a bit of a catch all sect to include anything not covered by more specific sections. However, if he hasn't sorted it by the time specified, you could do him under 34 which is disobeying a lawful command. The P1 bods would be able to tell you which one exactly.

[norfolkred1]

P1 fella seems like you safe bet, these are the cough, splutter, profesionals at this type of thing, make sure you have all the facts before you fizz or he will get off on a technicality which will pi55 you off even more. It's a learning curve, lets go back 20 years and be done with it, fizz him and sod it

[wolfy]

Off Topic

What ever happened to the days when you just wrote on the 252 what an airmen had done and left it to P1 to put the correct chapter and verse in, life was so much easier.

[Realist78]

Document the fact that he was told to get a new 1250, get it witnessed, signed by the scroat and put on his file at P1. If no 1250 is forthcoming, he's bang to rights, fizzerama! I've had several of these little cnuts over the past 12 months and a paper trail is the only way if the charge is to stick. I know it's a pain in the @rse but the system is firmly on the side of the scroat(s) unless you have all the i's dotted and the t's crossed.

And relax.:PDT_Xtremez_09:

[georgeios]

hi, ive not been in that long but have just done my JMLC, on it they say to fill out the form 252 with just the basics.... i.e SAC Blogs did not get his Temp ID when he was instructed to.
And thats it... Then send to P1 and they do the rest, im lead to beleve anyway, please feel free to ridicule me if im wrong

:PDT_Xtremez_06:

[Yossarian]

hi, ive not been in that long but have just done my JMLC, on it they say to fill out the form 252 with just the basics.... i.e SAC Blogs did not get his Temp ID when he was instructed to.
And thats it... Then send to P1 and they do the rest, im lead to beleve anyway, please feel free to ridicule me if im wrong

:PDT_Xtremez_06:

No, you're spot on mate.

As you say, just write in what Joe Scrote has done wrong, P1 will fill in what the exact offence is.
As an aside (For Matt's info) it's an offence purely to not be in posession of a valid ID card whilst on duty.
Just ask to see Joe Scrote's. When he can't produce, then fizz him.

Good on you for doing so by the way, so many are too scared to fizz people these days.

[mad_collie]

Just leave the lad alone FFS.

You've obviously failed as his line manager if you cant get through to him that this needs to be done.:PDT_Xtremez_42:

Just take him for a beer and ask him nicely if he'll do what you ask next time.:PDT_Xtremez_31:

[Biggles.]

What ever happened to him being sent to check the paint locker.:PDT_Xtremez_34:

[MrMasher]

No, you're spot on mate.

As you say, just write in what Joe Scrote has done wrong, P1 will fill in what the exact offence is.
As an aside (For Matt's info) it's an offence purely to not be in posession of a valid ID card whilst on duty.
Just ask to see Joe Scrote's. When he can't produce, then fizz him.

Good on you for doing so by the way, so many are too scared to fizz people these days.

Um, I dont believe that is strictly true anymore. I think that it is no longer a chargeable offence to be without a valid ID. Seem to remember reading it in orders some time ago.

Just smash his face in if he's a little tick-turd. Easier than all the paperwork!
Either that or psychological warfare!:PDT_Xtremez_28:

[Disillusioned]

Doubt you could charge him anyway for something like that. There's all sorts of hoop to jump through fisrst like written counselling, aural counselling etc etc.

[Tin basher]

Doubt you could charge him anyway for something like that. There's all sorts of hoop to jump through fisrst like written counselling, aural counselling etc etc.

Contact counselling ???????????

[snowball1]

If your a snco just get your jnco to fizz him!! thus saving any hassle!

[Soon To Leave]

Just leave the lad alone FFS.

You've obviously failed as his line manager if you cant get through to him that this needs to be done.:PDT_Xtremez_42:

Just take him for a beer and ask him nicely if he'll do what you ask next time.:PDT_Xtremez_31:

I tend to agree with M_C on this one.

Fizzing him is only going to hack him off even more and reduce his effectiveness.

If you really want to get this guy to start doing more, take the responsibility to motivate him by positively involving yourself and your NCO's and making the guy feel part of 'the team'.

The fact he's not interested in his F1250 may indicate some underlying resentment to his current occupation and you may need to bring him 'on side' before you get to the root of the problem.

Make a determined effort to praise his positive efforts where possible then he his more likely to accept critisism of his shortcomings as a genuine effort to point him in the right direction and not as a form of bullying or harassment.

I'm not saying he is being bullied or harassed, but if he feels he is, then the matter should be addressed.

[monobrow]

STL. Thats why there are always the few around that are a complete waste of skin! No one has the balls to charge someone for being late these days!

It happened once on me sqn, a lad was warned that if he got pi$$ed and turned up late, he'd get fizzed. (weekly occurence that)

Lo and behold, did he stay in, or at least get in at a reasonable time?? Did he f*ck because he thought "What they gonna do? Sack me??". The charge was made, and in the liney world, the Cpl was made out to be the b*stard!!! WTF!!!! At least the guy had the balls to stick to his word!!!

[Vagabond]

Doubt you could charge him anyway for something like that. There's all sorts of hoop to jump through fisrst like written counselling, aural counselling etc etc.

Sorry for jumping in. I've been out a few years now. What's all this counselling malarky. Has the Airforce changed so much that people can't be charged for dis-obeying a direct order? I agree people need to be helped along if they are struggling but surely if a lad can't be bothered to get an ID card sorted he deserves to get charged. Have we turned a bit namby pamby?

[True Blue Jack]

Sorry for jumping in. I've been out a few years now. What's all this counselling malarky. Has the Airforce changed so much that people can't be charged for dis-obeying a direct order? I agree people need to be helped along if they are struggling but surely if a lad can't be bothered to get an ID card sorted he deserves to get charged. Have we turned a bit namby pamby?

You can charge people for disobeying a direct order and also for not being in possession of a valid ID card. The trouble is, the NCO doing the charging has to be completely sure of his facts before he fills out the F252 (which is 4 times the size it used to be). Among other things to be considered are "is there another, more effective, way of doing this" and "am I singling him out/victimising him".

Do any other shineys know when AGAI 67 comes into single-service RAF usage? There'll be no problem then, because the scrotes can legally be taken around the back of the hangar for re-education.

[Vagabond]

You can charge people for disobeying a direct order and also for not being in possession of a valid ID card. The trouble is, the NCO doing the charging has to be completely sure of his facts before he fills out the F252 (which is 4 times the size it used to be). Among other things to be considered are "is there another, more effective, way of doing this" and "am I singling him out/victimising him".

Do any other shineys know when AGAI 67 comes into single-service RAF usage? There'll be no problem then, because the scrotes can legally be taken around the back of the hangar for re-education.

Another way of doing it would be to give him to the Regt section to beast him around the Airfield.

[auchtermuchty]

Off Topic

Just as an aside, I have no work to do tomorrow so feel free to send him to me for a day of ritual humiliation, PM for details! (Disclaimer - Some may assume this is bullying, please be assured everything will be above board):PDT_Xtremez_28:

Failing this we could take him to see Vim and leave them in a sound proofed room for an hour - unless he likes that sort of thing of course.:PDT_Xtremez_42:

[r0jaws]

F@ck the little pr1ck and the horse he road in on. Give him a couple of chances, then if he doesn't sort himself out, stamp on the little c@nt.
If anyone else thinks you're being a bit harsh, listen carefully to what they have to say, then tell them to ram it up their hoop.
There's not enough time in the world to deal with people like that.
I happily charge people and have done so several times in the past for repeat offences, thats what the system is for.
We all know the rules, as long as you're not bullying him who cares?
It's his career if he wants to flush it down the toilet thats his problem.
Be sure to go through all the proper counselling, interview, blah blah blah, tosh to make sure it's by the numbers BTW then do him anyway.

[busby1971]

This needs a little bit of management if the guy has a genuine greivence and is down on the mob temporarily a good talking to might be the solution. If this isn't the case start getting things down in writing and witnessed, if he's siht at his job as well as being a carp airman go down the informal warning and administrative route.

If you think a one off shock will sort him out and he does not carry out one of your witnessed orders fizz him.

Personally I think good personnel management can sort out quite a bit but for some they just don't (won't) learn. No room for wasters in this smaller RAF get rid of him if needs be.

[Vagabond]

F@ck the little pr1ck and the horse he road in on. Give him a couple of chances, then if he doesn't sort himself out, stamp on the little c@nt.
If anyone else thinks you're being a bit harsh, listen carefully to what they have to say, then tell them to ram it up their hoop.
There's not enough time in the world to deal with people like that.
I happily charge people and have done so several times in the past for repeat offences, thats what the system is for.
We all know the rules, as long as you're not bullying him who cares?
It's his career if he wants to flush it down the toilet thats his problem.
Be sure to go through all the proper counselling, interview, blah blah blah, tosh to make sure it's by the numbers BTW then do him anyway.

That's more like it!!!!

[CodeMonkey]

I tend to agree with M_C on this one.

Fizzing him is only going to hack him off even more and reduce his effectiveness.

If you really want to get this guy to start doing more, take the responsibility to motivate him by positively involving yourself and your NCO's and making the guy feel part of 'the team'.

The fact he's not interested in his F1250 may indicate some underlying resentment to his current occupation and you may need to bring him 'on side' before you get to the root of the problem.

Make a determined effort to praise his positive efforts where possible then he his more likely to accept critisism of his shortcomings as a genuine effort to point him in the right direction and not as a form of bullying or harassment.

I'm not saying he is being bullied or harassed, but if he feels he is, then the matter should be addressed.


What a load of namby pamby sh1t, why don't you just call all the NCOs on the shift wanker. The problem lies in the fact that society on a whole has gone soft, this whole nicey nicey culture really fecks me off, the more this guy does wrong and isn't charged etc the worse he will get full stop!


It sounds like the guy isn't effective and if he can;t be asked to do what he's told how are you sure the o2 thief is doing his work to the required standard! That is the real crux of it.

[KingGuin]

Off Topic

What ever happened to the days when you just wrote on the 252 what an airmen had done and left it to P1 to put the correct chapter and verse in, life was so much easier.

If only it was so simple!!! We can't fizz anyone these days without getting the wording of the charge checked by Cmd Legal! I'm all for sorting it out round the back of the hangar.

[wgaf]

Before you fizz him give him all the sh1t jobs going, make sure he never gets an early stack and make sure he's never allowed to work unsupervised, he'll soon get sick of it and either sort himself out or fukk off out the RAF.
As for those of you saying yeah, go on fizz him, get a fekkin life. if you have to resort to charging someone then that just proves you're sh1t at your job and you shouldn't be in a position of man managemnt. Coppers charging people I can understand and for serious offences yes, but for minor offences..........grow up ffs.

[MrMasher]

You can charge people for disobeying a direct order and also for not being in possession of a valid ID card. .

I'm pretty sure you cant charge someone for not having ID anymore.
It used to be a chargeable offence for not having it on your person. Used to be the trump card for a discip when fizzing someone and then asking for their ID card.
When the fizz system transferred to our call centre, dial-a-fizz, it went by the wayside because it was such a common occurence and took up so much paperwork.

[Vim_Fuego]

Before you fizz him give him all the sh1t jobs going, make sure he never gets an early stack and make sure he's never allowed to work unsupervised, he'll soon get sick of it and either sort himself out or fukk off out the RAF.
As for those of you saying yeah, go on fizz him, get a fekkin life. if you have to resort to charging someone then that just proves you're sh1t at your job and you shouldn't be in a position of man managemnt. Coppers charging people I can understand and for serious offences yes, but for minor offences..........grow up ffs.


This is how I'd do it...Sh!t jobs/guard/lay it on thick with supervision/'we're all staying late today because SAC **** has yet again fooked up'/more sh!t jobs and so on...

If he's clever enough to swing the lead enough to annoy you then it'll insult this intelligence to be treated harshly yet fairly like a child...

[gemarriott]

This is how I'd do it...Sh!t jobs/guard/lay it on thick with supervision/'we're all staying late today because SAC **** has yet again fooked up'/more sh!t jobs and so on...

If he's clever enough to swing the lead enough to annoy you then it'll insult this intelligence to be treated harshly yet fairly like a child...

don't forget the ponding:PDT_Xtremez_42: , oh my god how I used to enjoy ponding wankers:PDT_Xtremez_14:

[MattBombHead]

All the advice has been taken on board, and the result is as follows....

He has been given his finak warning, (documented), given a full bollocking, and is under no illusions, next time he fu*ks up, he will be in P1 filling out paperwork.

Incidentally, he is just waiting until he has done his 3 yeras so he can PVR, he doesn't want to be in, and is going to learn that he can do it the hard way, or the easy way.... ::/:

[NotAnIDOYet]

All the advice has been taken on board, and the result is as follows....

He has been given his finak warning, (documented), given a full bollocking, and is under no illusions, next time he fu*ks up, he will be in P1 filling out paperwork.

Incidentally, he is just waiting until he has done his 3 yeras so he can PVR, he doesn't want to be in, and is going to learn that he can do it the hard way, or the easy way.... ::/:

Get him to PVR now instead of waiting, that way he will be out 3 years after he finished phase 2 training. Wont make him any more effective but at least you know when the scrote is leaving. Have one just like him in my JPA Hierarchy, sorry command chain, at the moment - roll on Dec 08!

[hobbes]

Just leave the lad alone FFS.

You've obviously failed as his line manager if you cant get through to him that this needs to be done.:PDT_Xtremez_42:

Just take him for a beer and ask him nicely if he'll do what you ask next time.:PDT_Xtremez_31:

I tend to agree with M_C on this one.

Fizzing him is only going to hack him off even more and reduce his effectiveness.

If you really want to get this guy to start doing more, take the responsibility to motivate him by positively involving yourself and your NCO's and making the guy feel part of 'the team'.

The fact he's not interested in his F1250 may indicate some underlying resentment to his current occupation and you may need to bring him 'on side' before you get to the root of the problem.

Make a determined effort to praise his positive efforts where possible then he his more likely to accept critisism of his shortcomings as a genuine effort to point him in the right direction and not as a form of bullying or harassment.

I'm not saying he is being bullied or harassed, but if he feels he is, then the matter should be addressed.

You ****ing what???!!!

It's because of ****ing idiots like you two that the Air Force is sliding down the ****ing pan.

Show some ****ing backbone and behave like a ****ing SNCO. Stop hiding behind the pink and fluffy management courses and grow some balls.

[Noodle]

I remember S2 having a problem with me, he took me down the pub, got me drunk and tried to shove me under his patio!

[auchtermuchty]

I remember S2 having a problem with me, he took me down the pub, got me drunk and tried to shove me under his patio!

Isn't that just him saying a general hello?:PDT_Xtremez_06:

[Noodle]

No, that was him spraying cillit bang everywhere. 1 day under patio is harsher than 10 days jankers!

[shiny_arse]

**Fascist mode on**

I have been informed this morning that one of my airmen does not have an ID card. He apparently 'lost' it around 3 months ago, and was issued a temporary ID card. This expired around 2 months ago.

Normally, this would not cause too much of a problem, but this particular airman is constantly in the sh!t, and its time it was brought to a stop.

So, can i just fizz him? What orders is he contravening?

Many thanks in advance for any help guys

**Fascist mode off**

MBH - As much as I agree with you and hats off that you actually want to something about this little scrote. My other concern was how on earth has he been getting on and off camp for two months ago and nothing has been highlighted by the MGR or the SGF. If it is common knowledge and a case of shrugging shoulders it highlights a more serious cause of concern.

[georgeios]

This is how I'd do it...Sh!t jobs/guard/lay it on thick with supervision/'we're all staying late today because SAC **** has yet again fooked up'/more sh!t jobs and so on...

If he's clever enough to swing the lead enough to annoy you then it'll insult this intelligence to be treated harshly yet fairly like a child...



Im lead to beleve you can not do this as its classed as a punishment and As JNCO's SNCO's we can not issue punishments, I got a lad to get the bikkies in for being late for the first time as a wee joke slap on the wrists and my New School WO gave me a wee tip that we cant even do that, WO and above are the only people who have the right to issue punishments regardless of who small, if you do this it can be taken as bulling.. just going on what i was advised but im open to ridicule....:PDT_Xtremez_06:

[Noodle]

Its not a punishment, the work needs doing etc etc etc

[shiny_arse]

Im lead to beleve you can not do this as its classed as a punishment and As JNCO's SNCO's we can not issue punishments, I got a lad to get the bikkies in for being late for the first time as a wee joke slap on the wrists and my New School WO gave me a wee tip that we cant even do that, WO and above are the only people who have the right to issue punishments regardless of who small, if you do this it can be taken as bulling.. just going on what i was advised but im open to ridicule....:PDT_Xtremez_06:


However, it is not deemed as a punishment if learning is taking place. Sticking the scrote on SGF for a week in order that the need to check personnels ID's is a key requirement of security in the RAF. (and yeah yeah I know the old recognition is the best form of identifiaction blah blah blah).

As for your WO giving you grief for telling someone to get the biccies in ... christ on a bike!.... I remember coming in late 3 days running and that on each occassion I was told I was going to be fizzed. (Long story - different forum) My JNCO on the 3rd occassion dragged me into an empty office, unloaded both barrels then stuck me on duty clerk for the easter weekend and informed me that I would not be granted any PH. I was so bloody grateful not be thrown through the P1 route that whinging about it did not even cross my mind. Lesson well and truly learnt.

[georgeios]

However, it is not deemed as a punishment if learning is taking place. Sticking the scrote on SGF for a week in order that the need to check personnels ID's is a key requirement of security in the RAF. (and yeah yeah I know the old recognition is the best form of identifiaction blah blah blah).

As for your WO giving you grief for telling someone to get the biccies in ... christ on a bike!.... I remember coming in late 3 days running and that on each occassion I was told I was going to be fizzed. (Long story - different forum) My JNCO on the 3rd occassion dragged me into an empty office, unloaded both barrels then stuck me on duty clerk for the easter weekend and informed me that I would not be granted any PH. I was so bloody grateful not be thrown through the P1 route that whinging about it did not even cross my mind. Lesson well and truly learnt.

it wasnt greif just a wee tip, hes quoit was pink and fluff these days and someone might cry if you put them at a "financle loss" i will learn to spell :o) however i do like the re-education thing class move.. ill rememeber that one...:PDT_Xtremez_28:

[Soon To Leave]

You ****ing what???!!!

It's because of ****ing idiots like you two that the Air Force is sliding down the ****ing pan.

Show some ****ing backbone and behave like a ****ing SNCO. Stop hiding behind the pink and fluffy management courses and grow some balls.


I've never had to charge anyone because I've had the leadership skills to encourage the best out of my subordinates. I would consider charging someone as the weak option, particularly where the problems are in the workplace.

MBH

If you have warned the SAC that the next time he gets things wrong 'he will be in P1 filling out paperwork', you have commited a gross error. You have basically threatened him with a charge which is considered bullying and is against QRs.

It's probably your treatment of him that has prompted him to consider leaving at his earliest exit point. Why not so something positive and encourage him to stay.

[hobbes]

I've never had to charge anyone because I've had the leadership skills to encourage the best out of my subordinates. I would consider charging someone as the weak option, particularly where the problems are in the workplace.

MBH

If you have warned the SAC that the next time he gets things wrong 'he will be in P1 filling out paperwork', you have commited a gross error. You have basically threatened him with a charge which is considered bullying and is against QRs.

It's probably your treatment of him that has prompted him to consider leaving at his earliest exit point. Why not so something positive and encourage him to stay.

You really are a cock. It's snivelling ****ing toads like you that give SNCOs a bad name.

Where as people can see that ILLBW is a **** take of the combined bad qualities that we see in people, you could actually be him.

[norfolkred1]

I've never had to charge anyone because I've had the leadership skills to encourage the best out of my subordinates. I would consider charging someone as the weak option, particularly where the problems are in the workplace.

MBH

If you have warned the SAC that the next time he gets things wrong 'he will be in P1 filling out paperwork', you have commited a gross error. You have basically threatened him with a charge which is considered bullying and is against QRs.

It's probably your treatment of him that has prompted him to consider leaving at his earliest exit point. Why not so something positive and encourage him to stay.

This the type of leadership we DONT WANT fook me I bet your lads really love you doing all the work for them as they know they can get away with it, either get a backbone or go for a commission FFS.

[MattBombHead]

MBH

If you have warned the SAC that the next time he gets things wrong 'he will be in P1 filling out paperwork', you have commited a gross error. You have basically threatened him with a charge which is considered bullying and is against QRs.

It's probably your treatment of him that has prompted him to consider leaving at his earliest exit point. Why not so something positive and encourage him to stay.

Actually, he has only recently been posted in, and has made no secret of the fact that once he can, he will be putting in a PVR at the earliest opportunity, i fail to see how you can begin to put the blame for his behaviour at my (virtual) doorstep.

As has been stated many times on this forum, (some in this thread) in this modern RAF, with LEAN, and every other manpower reduction scheme working their collective t!ts off, we can not afford to have people who are willing to swing the lead at every opportunity.

[tommo9999]

All,

The original question by MBH was:

So, can i just fizz him? What orders is he contravening?

We seem to have changed subject here, please make an effort to stay on topic. Also, if you want to have a pop at each other, use the PM system.

Tommo

[MattBombHead]

Fair one Tommo.

Anyway, as the answer has been sorted, any chance of someone locking the thread?

Cheers