Future of TG17

[Humble Scribe]

So how do we sort out the trade? Here are some ideas for discussion.

Firstly, recruit and retain; that'll be a tough one when 6 or 7 SAC's on my stn have PVR'd in the last 12 months. Manage their careers in the first 3 - 5 years properly giving them full exposure to front line admin in many of the trade vagaries. Then give them a realistic chance of being promoted.

Manage the trade pyramid by making many SNCO posts in to JNCO posts. Examples of this are Career Management as previously discussed, PA slots, creating more JNCO PSF (less SNCO's) slots and perhaps allowing the more experienced JNCO to be employed in Embassies (if there are any left) and many of the over-ranked NATO jobs.

Life the time at WO rank to say, 6- 8 years, and offer commissioned WO scheme or retirement at that stage. This will stop the Crusty WO's stopping the promotion flow for too long and give experience at JO level.

Just a few ideas to generate discussion as I'm enjoying this thread; over to you guys!

[True Blue Jack]

I'm enjoying this thread, too, so I'm going to play Devil's advocate :PDT_Xtremez_30:

Retention is the key word, and applies across the trade spectrum. Sticking to us shineys, though: To immerse LACs fully into the trade means that they would have to be posted to a MOB from training. HS's idea means that a new LAC will not become fully effective until they have been in productive service for 3 - 5 years, bu which time they will already be looking at promotion. Another consequence is that all the crappy jobs in the trade (HQ AIR, PJHQ, tiny little registries in the middle of nowhere) will fall to 2nd tourist SACs. That is hardly a good retention tool.

Getting promoted to sgt in the next few years is going to be as tough as getting promoted to FS has been historically. Downgrading more posts is not going to help matters. On a Sqn, the adjt has to be taken seriously by both the techie Trade Managers and the winged master race. A newly promoted cpl is not going to get that. Similarly in NATO Units a cpl (OR-4) will find himself outranked by far less qualified and able compatriots from other nations; already NATO postings are frustrating for any career-minded individual. Downgrade some of our posts by 2 more NATO grades will only exacerbate matters.

Ending a WOs career after 6 - 8 years in the rank will do no-one any favours. Younger FSs offered promotion will just turn it down - time is on their side after all. The only effect will be to push the dead men's shoes down one rank level.

There you go, I think I've opposed all HS's topics diametrically (irrespective of my own actual views). The floor is open - discuss.
:PDT_Xtremez_19:

[tommo9999]

I agree with Tommo that is the system that needs to be reviewed, albeit this is on blind faith as he had the most recent experience of the system and he knows the Secret books that govern drafting!

Can't be that secret, 'cos you know about it. :PDT_Xtremez_30:

On a serious note, TBJ's point about posting LACs to MOBs is well made; when I was drafting Medics et al, it was policy that all LACs had to be posted to a MOB for their first tour. How many SACs do we all know that have PVR'd because they have been sent to RAF Little Snoring for their first tour? Or a registry at Wycombe? Etc etc. Equally HS's point about changing some posts from Sgt to Cpl has some merit. The changes to TG17 are necessary, it is quite simply a case of how radical we want to be.

[Boarderlyne]

Can't be that secret, 'cos you know about it. :PDT_Xtremez_30:

On a serious note, TBJ's point about posting LACs to MOBs is well made; when I was drafting Medics et al, it was policy that all LACs had to be posted to a MOB for their first tour. How many SACs do we all know that have PVR'd because they have been sent to RAF Little Snoring for their first tour? Or a registry at Wycombe? Etc etc. Equally HS's point about changing some posts from Sgt to Cpl has some merit. The changes to TG17 are necessary, it is quite simply a case of how radical we want to be.

I know of them but not of their content! :PDT_Xtremez_28: D'ats why they're SECRET! :PDT_Xtremez_15:

RAF Little Snoring, I think is great for 2nd tourists as it allows them to consolidate their skills and make themselves promotable, but for 1st tourist LAC, then that is a bad idea as the kids will think that getting by is the be all and end all.

Radical change for TG17. All JNCOs and above receive mandatory training in Welfare Management. 2 week course that covers Pref Treatment, Gender Transfer, SFA, Marriage Counselling, Disciplinary Offences, WFTC and CSA as a rough example. Takes the load off the Chf Shark and makes the JNCO rank that little bit more punchy.

[ForgottenName]

Can't be that secret, 'cos you know about it. :PDT_Xtremez_30:

On a serious note, TBJ's point about posting LACs to MOBs is well made; when I was drafting Medics et al, it was policy that all LACs had to be posted to a MOB for their first tour. How many SACs do we all know that have PVR'd because they have been sent to RAF Little Snoring for their first tour? Or a registry at Wycombe? Etc etc. Equally HS's point about changing some posts from Sgt to Cpl has some merit. The changes to TG17 are necessary, it is quite simply a case of how radical we want to be.

Tommo, watch out for the next amendment to AP 3376, particularly the TG17 Chapter.

[tommo9999]

Radical change for TG17. All JNCOs and above receive mandatory training in Welfare Management. 2 week course that covers Pref Treatment, Gender Transfer, SFA, Marriage Counselling, Disciplinary Offences, WFTC and CSA as a rough example.

Was lucky enough to do a couple of tours in PHF so covered Welfare, Bereavement & Loss, Gender stuff etc etc. Also as a lad was the subject of a wee bit of the old disciplinary action, so had a bit of an insight. It should be mandatory (Or strongly encouraged) for TG17 NCO's to go to Amport House for Listening Skills & Bereavement & Loss as a minimum. Great place and excellent courses.

[ForgottenName]

However, you have got to be wary of taking the trade in a direction that would lead it ripe for civilianisation or the post could be FTRS'd. It would be very easy to FTRS a number of WO posts at the moment - that way the trade could be capped at FS. I don't think that we want to go that way.

[tommo9999]

However, you have got to be wary of taking the trade in a direction that would lead it ripe for civilianisation or the post could be FTRS'd. It would be very easy to FTRS a number of WO posts at the moment - that way the trade could be capped at FS. I don't think that we want to go that way.

Do you think we have a long term future then?

[ForgottenName]

Do you think we have a long term future then?

I certainly do, there are some people at Air Comd who would not be doing what they are doing if there was not a long term future for the trade.

[tommo9999]

Please feel free to use this thread to discuss the future of TG17. The posts above this one were moved from the Career Management Thread.

Tommo

[True Blue Jack]

However, you have got to be wary of taking the trade in a direction that would lead it ripe for civilianisation or the post could be FTRS'd. It would be very easy to FTRS a number of WO posts at the moment - that way the trade could be capped at FS. I don't think that we want to go that way.

The way to do that is to concentrate on our operational role. Jobs in-theatre that have traditionally fallen to TG17 have included (but are not restricted to): Theatre Reception (Arrivals Clerk), allocation of accommodation/bedding, cashier services, manpower/establishments, public & non-public accounts, infrastructure management, classified document handling & welfare matters. All of these jobs are/can be carried out by civvies at normal units, so the trick is to persuade the powers that be that we need servicemen doing those jobs in the UK so that they can take their experience out to theatre with them.

Welfare is the one area we are most likely to gain votes at the highest level because it is one area the RAF as a whole is still not very good at.

We also need to forget about the "ideal pyramid". Many jobs that were once done by SACs/Cpls were civilianised following Options for Change and the Bett Review. Those jobs are never coming back and trimming down the remainder of the pyramid just for the sake of tidiness is a mistake.

[Boarderlyne]

...Welfare is the one area we are most likely to gain votes at the highest level because it is one area the RAF as a whole is still not very good at.

We also need to forget about the "ideal pyramid". Many jobs that were once done by SACs/Cpls were civilianised following Options for Change and the Bett Review. Those jobs are never coming back and trimming down the remainder of the pyramid just for the sake of tidiness is a mistake.

I agree that this fascination for the ideal pyramid is a bad idea. Let's look at the jobs that need doing and establish for what is needed, not for what we want the trade to look like.

Welfare is probably the best way forward for us to look at as a trade, but we will need to be careful that we don't end up as an adjunct to the Padre's corner.

[ForgottenName]

Unfortunately, we cannot forget about the ideal pyramid. One of the recommendations from the MCSG is that all trades - not just TG17 - structure themselves on a 1:1.7 ration. To do this, we - as in TG17 - have really got to look at empowering SACs by driving work down to the lowest level. I am not saying that we should give every SAC a GPC card, but when you see an SAC acting as a DAO for a detachment for aircraft in the UK we are going the right way.

I believe that we have also got to be very careful of just looking at the work we do in the operational theatres. When trades become totally operationally focussed, then it can be seen that employment in the UK is only seen as a respite between OOA tours.

Welfare is another issue. When an individual submits a PT case for example, it is always (nearly in my experience anyway) WO PSF or the Chf Clk who drafts the Station input. When doing so, he has to balance the needs of the Service and task against the needs of the individual to identify which is greater. However, if the WO PSF or Chf Clk was much more involved with the individual then his/her thought processes would lean much more that way.

[ForgottenName]

So how do we sort out the trade? Here are some ideas for discussion.

Firstly, recruit and retain; that'll be a tough one when 6 or 7 SAC's on my stn have PVR'd in the last 12 months. Manage their careers in the first 3 - 5 years properly giving them full exposure to front line admin in many of the trade vagaries. Then give them a realistic chance of being promoted. I believe that the Trade Sponsor already touched on this issue at the recent APC. For your proposal to occur, it needs to be in AP 3376 and I understand that he is already working on this issue by making it procedure that LACs are only posted to PSF's on Main Operating Bases followed by a second tour on a front line squadron. However, in my opinion, he would have to ensure that those posts that are not either in PSF or on front line sqns are not filled by personnel who are not looking for a full career.

Manage the trade pyramid by making many SNCO posts in to JNCO posts. Examples of this are Career Management as previously discussed, PA slots, creating more JNCO PSF (less SNCO's) slots and perhaps allowing the more experienced JNCO to be employed in Embassies (if there are any left) and many of the over-ranked NATO jobs. I like your idea regarding making CM's JNCO slots and think it has merit., particularly if the JNCOs only drafted SACs. However, it would have to managed very carefully.

Life the time at WO rank to say, 6- 8 years, and offer commissioned WO scheme or retirement at that stage. This will stop the Crusty WO's stopping the promotion flow for too long and give experience at JO level. Lifing the time in the WO rank would be very difficult. I think that you would be severely penalising an individual who has worked hard to get through the rank structure to reach the rank of WO, only to be told that he/she can only stay at that rank for 8 yrs max. This would be particularly so at the moment whereby junior officers in the Admin Sec branch move on average at about the 18 months point. Remember, not all WOs, and I would say this is particularly so of those who move up the ranks quicker than their contemporaries, become crusty WOs.

Just a few ideas to generate discussion as I'm enjoying this thread; over to you guys!

I have attached some thoughts to HS's ideas and welcome any constructive discussion.

[ForgottenName]

I agree that this fascination for the ideal pyramid is a bad idea. Let's look at the jobs that need doing and establish for what is needed, not for what we want the trade to look like.

Welfare is probably the best way forward for us to look at as a trade, but we will need to be careful that we don't end up as an adjunct to the Padre's corner.

Boarderlyne. I would have agreed with your comment that we need to look at the jobs that need doing and establish for what is needed. However, unfortunately, the MOD, guided by the politicians, hold the purse strings and, therefore, the Defence Budget will always restrict us in the number of personnel we can have. I believe that if we looked at the jobs that needed doing we would get to a figure that is well over and above the 1377 figure that I heard the Trade Sponsor say that we would be capped at on 1 Apr 08. Therefore, we need to look at how we can deploy our resources to the best advantage and, in doing so, we must look at what the priorities are. On the welfare front, I believe that we have got to be very careful that we do not put ourselves into a postion whereby what we are employed on can be very easily civilianised; we certainly would if we became an adjunct to the Padre's corner.

[True Blue Jack]

Unfortunately, we cannot forget about the ideal pyramid. One of the recommendations from the MCSG is that all trades - not just TG17 - structure themselves on a 1:1.7 ration.

I've got a great idea for readjusting our trade structure to fit the ideal 1:1.7 rank ratio. Let's militarise all admin jobs in registries, works services, accounts and JPAC. The sudden influx of SACs & Cpls will straighten it all out nicely.

Alternatively (and perhaps a little more realistically) we could count the civil servants in those jobs as TG17 pers for the sake of fitting the pyramid. If we did that in my office, for example, the pyramid fits almost perfectly: one sgt, 2 cpls, 1 SAC & 2 civvies (read 3 x SAC for aesthetic purposes).

I don't think for one minute that either scenario will be looked at seriously, but I hope it proves the futility of deciding that we need 600 SACs, 400 Cpls, 200 Sgts, etc and trying to fit the job we do into those figures. You can empower SACs all you want, but what that really means is that the RAF will be getting far more than its pound of flesh for less than £20K p.a. and without having to sign people onto pensionable engagements.

[KingGuin]

Some great ideas and I am thrilled to see that others as as passionate about the trade as I am. However I am a simple man - staff me to my establishment and I would be over the moon, staff me to the FMDL and I would be as happy as a pig in poo.

[ForgottenName]

I've got a great idea for readjusting our trade structure to fit the ideal 1:1.7 rank ratio. Let's militarise all admin jobs in registries, works services, accounts and JPAC. The sudden influx of SACs & Cpls will straighten it all out nicely.

Alternatively (and perhaps a little more realistically) we could count the civil servants in those jobs as TG17 pers for the sake of fitting the pyramid. If we did that in my office, for example, the pyramid fits almost perfectly: one sgt, 2 cpls, 1 SAC & 2 civvies (read 3 x SAC for aesthetic purposes).


Surely, that would mean taking more jobs on. With the current structure, we are experiencing difficulty in fulfilling all our current commitments with the resources that we have.

[KingGuin]

Surely, that would mean taking more jobs on. With the current structure, we are experiencing difficulty in fulfilling all our current commitments with the resources that we have.

Hear Hear.

[ForgottenName]

Some great ideas and I am thrilled to see that others as as passionate about the trade as I am. However I am a simple man - staff me to my establishment and I would be over the moon, staff me to the FMDL and I would be as happy as a pig in poo.


Good point KingGuin. I have it on good authority that that is what the Trade Sponsor is trying to do.

[True Blue Jack]

Surely, that would mean taking more jobs on. With the current structure, we are experiencing difficulty in fulfilling all our current commitments with the resources that we have.

Too quick! You replied before I had finished my post!

[ForgottenName]

Too quick! You replied before I had finished my post!


Haha. Me thinks you edited your post. On a serious note, as a Trade, we have got to get the balance right. I personnally don't think that the log jam that we have currently got at Sgt rank is right.

[ForgottenName]

TBJ Getting promoted to sgt in the next few years is going to be as tough as getting promoted to FS has been historically. Downgrading more posts is not going to help matters. On a Sqn, the adjt has to be taken seriously by both the techie Trade Managers and the winged master race. A newly promoted cpl is not going to get that. Similarly in NATO Units a cpl (OR-4) will find himself outranked by far less qualified and able compatriots from other nations; already NATO postings are frustrating for any career-minded individual. Downgrade some of our posts by 2 more NATO grades will only exacerbate matters.

Have just taken the time to reread some of the earlier posts and have extracted the above from one of yours. I believe that everything that you had said above is true, that is why the Trade Sponsor (I believe that it is his job) is going to have a very hard time working through this process. Never mind NATO posts, of which I have done a number, working with the Army also poses problems. They always seem to outrank the RAF in admin posts but, again, I understand why and it is not just because they want to have the edge on the RAF.

However, having spoken to a number of Chf Clks recently, I don't think anyone of them would turn down an extra SAC or two.

[True Blue Jack]

Haha. Me thinks you edited your post. On a serious note, as a Trade, we have got to get the balance right. I personnally don't think that the log jam that we have currently got at Sgt rank is right.

Off Topic One of those things. I submitted my post, re-read it, decided to make some changes at the same time as you replied to the original. Such is life!


The log jam at sgt is tough and we all know of good clerks who have fallen off the conveyor belt just because there were too few vacancies to promote them into once they became competitive. I fail to see how suddenly and radically reducing the establishment at sgt level and increasing at SAC level will address this issue. The full benefits will not be seen until kids joining now are competing for promotion to FS, by which time something else will have changed (WW3, the dissolution of the RAF, world peace, who knows).

Somebody once likened the RAF to a super-tanker. It is possible to change its direction, but you have to do it gradually. Handbrake turns risk capsizing the whole kitten-caboodle.

[ForgottenName]

Off Topic One of those things. I submitted my post, re-read it, decided to make some changes at the same time as you replied to the original. Such is life!


The log jam at sgt is tough and we all know of good clerks who have fallen off the conveyor belt just because there were too few vacancies to promote them into once they became competitive. I fail to see how suddenly and radically reducing the establishment at sgt level and increasing at SAC level will address this issue. The full benefits will not be seen until kids joining now are competing for promotion to FS, by which time something else will have changed (WW3, the dissolution of the RAF, world peace, who knows).

Somebody once likened the RAF to a super-tanker. It is possible to change its direction, but you have to do it gradually. Handbrake turns risk capsizing the whole kitten-caboodle.

I don't beleive that anything is going to happen suddenly and radically. The Trade Sponsor stated at the APC that the whole process is going to take at least 7 - 10 years if not longer. I know that you cannot suddenly open the gates and get about 200 more ACs through the training factory, it just does not happen that way. Therefore, if you can't get the people through the training door, then you can't release the people you already have (and there is no more money for redundancies anyway).

RAF = supertanker. You must have been listening in on a TMT course then!

[tommo9999]

Never mind NATO posts, of which I have done a number, working with the Army also poses problems. They always seem to outrank the RAF in admin posts but, again, I understand why and it is not just because they want to have the edge on the RAF.

The rank issue doesn't have to be a problem with the pongoes - Force of personality allied to rock solid knowledge makes them sit up and take notice. Granted it's not easy but it can work, and let's face it, jointery is here for the long haul, so lets make sure we (TG17) are considered invaluable.

[True Blue Jack]

The rank issue doesn't have to be a problem with the pongoes - Force of personality allied to rock solid knowledge makes them sit up and take notice. Granted it's not easy but it can work, and let's face it, jointery is here for the long haul, so lets make sure we (TG17) are considered invaluable.

It's a double-edged sword isn't it? A smart pongo will rely on his RAF (and RN to be fair) subordinates, otherwise they play "count the bananas". At my last unit I worked for 3 successive WO2s. One of them was smart and listened to his blue colleagues. The other 2 took every ounce of cunning and lip-biting we had.

[Boarderlyne]

The rank issue doesn't have to be a problem with the pongoes - Force of personality allied to rock solid knowledge makes them sit up and take notice. Granted it's not easy but it can work, and let's face it, jointery is here for the long haul, so lets make sure we (TG17) are considered invaluable.

Agreed to that one. But you need to have a Pongo that is willing to listen.

Off Topic Listening to all the talk about numbers, on TMT in 03, the then current trade sponsor said that we would need to have 2400 to maintain operational effectiveness at that time. Can't remember the review that was stated in but it did make me sit up and take note. But it is interesting to note that once Pongo Central drops below the 100K mark, then they are no longer an Army, they are officially a Defence Force. Off Topic

A lot of good ideas coming from all angles and currently trying to add to those, but can't come up with anything more radical than more empowerment lower down the chain. But as we are still below FMDL that has its own pitfalls.

[ForgottenName]

Originally Posted by tommo9999 http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/ambience/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=112891#post112891)
The rank issue doesn't have to be a problem with the pongoes - Force of personality allied to rock solid knowledge makes them sit up and take notice. Granted it's not easy but it can work, and let's face it, jointery is here for the long haul, so lets make sure we (TG17) are considered invaluable.

From what I have seen and heard, the RAF and the Navy are streets ahead of Army HR. I understand that they are learning the lessons that we did, the hard way.

[tommo9999]

From what I have seen and heard, the RAF and the Navy are streets ahead of Army HR. I understand that they are learning the lessons that we did, the hard way.

The RAF/RN probably are ahead. The Army are tending towards the "try first, ask questions later" approach, but gradually they are realising that our first 12 months is a useful pool of knowledge. As I said above, it's a combination of personality, knowledge, and approach. The Army hate being told they were wrong.

[ForgottenName]

The RAF/RN probably are ahead. The Army are tending towards the "try first, ask questions later" approach, but gradually they are realising that our first 12 months is a useful pool of knowledge. As I said above, it's a combination of personality, knowledge, and approach. The Army hate being told they were wrong.

As would we if the position had been reversed!

[tommo9999]

Difficult to speculate on what might have been. But I'd like to think we would have taken more notice of any advice a sister Service might have been able to provide.

[ForgottenName]

Difficult to speculate on what might have been. But I'd like to think we would have taken more notice of any advice a sister Service might have been able to provide.

It should be noted that we look on the Army as one organisation; however, it is not. You will find that different clerks in different part of the Army will get different advice/instructions depending on which Brigade they are in. However, I am told that where our Army colleagues are in an area that is RAF or RN led soldiers are, in the majority of places, looking at the RAF/RN for advice at the operator/working level.

[vinnyvx]

I like a lot of the posters on this thread think a number of TG17 posts are over ranked. I think there is scope to down rank a number of jobs, for instance PAs, Stn Cashiers and Cpls in AFCOs. We'll certainly need to engage in some down ranking if the trade structure is to become viable. The block at Sgt will need to go and addressing that particular issue will unfortunately generate some pain. However, its a problem thats been festering for too long.

I just wanted to correct the assumption some posters have that High Wycombe is awash with Registries and TG17 Clks. It isn't. There are three registries, the Int, Air Cmd and Stn Registry, the Int registry if I remember correctly employees 3 TG17. The Cmd and Stn Registry are entirely civilian staffed and have been since about 2003. Even then there are only a total of about 10 registry staff in the Cmd and Stn Registry, and the number is getting smaller every year. Virtually all document storage here is electronic, hence why Manning are moving to electronic dossiers.

[Humble Scribe]

Whilst I agree that many of our posts are over ranked, there is a legitimate argument that the RAF TG17 posts will be under valued when in a 'purple' or NATO environment. It may be that we consider authorising SPAR when JNCO's go on det to give them the credability they deserve in a tri-service environment but not very likely.

I agree with TBJ that we are chasing the perfect pyramid when the result means that we are out-ranked against Armry & RN personnel when employed jointly. Unfortunately we may have to accept this imbalance but perhaps the Sec Sponsor could use this argument to up range at Cpl level; can you imagine the techies bleating if a shiney is on the same pay level? Got to me worth a try just for that!! It may also aid the retention of SAC's if they think they'll get a mega pay rise on promotion.

Going back to the development of our SAC's, we need to empower the Chf Clk's to move them around on station and not solely rely on ACOS Manning. All Clks should be placed under his/her establishment to move around at their pleasure without XX Sqn Adj interference; only then can we achieve proper career management for our JR's.

[tommo9999]

Going back to the development of our SAC's, we need to empower the Chf Clk's to move them around on station and not solely rely on ACOS Manning. All Clks should be placed under his/her establishment to move around at their pleasure without XX Sqn Adj interference; only then can we achieve proper career management for our JR's.

Chf Clks should already be doing this. The best Chf Clks have done this for years; the worst have held onto their better staff to the detriment of other sections of the Unit. This is vital for the development of our JRs. I don't think TG17 will ever have the "perfect pyramid", particularly as we move more and more into Joint operations/Units. Is there such a beast?

[Humble Scribe]

Chf Clks should already be doing this. The best Chf Clks have done this for years; the worst have held onto their better staff to the detriment of other sections of the Unit. This is vital for the development of our JRs. I don't think TG17 will ever have the "perfect pyramid", particularly as we move more and more into Joint operations/Units. Is there such a beast?

Sometimes the Chf Clk's hands are tied as personnel are posted on to the Wg's/Sqn's and not to the Stn as a whole for the Chf Clk to distribute. That's my point really, the CC needs carte blanche authority to move his clks as he/she sees fit.

[True Blue Jack]

Sometimes the Chf Clk's hands are tied as personnel are posted on to the Wg's/Sqn's and not to the Stn as a whole for the Chf Clk to distribute. That's my point really, the CC needs carte blanche authority to move his clks as he/she sees fit.

God forbid, no! I've spent years trying to get out of PSF and when I finally get a Sqn job you want to give WO PSF the power to activate my bungee cord.

Actually, it is something our unit has been trying to achieve (seemingly without success) since JPA rollout. It makes sense on many levels. Unfortunately, it matches the "G1 Det" model used by the AGC, whereby all the clerks in a Regiment belong to the RAO and he moves them between HQ and the Companies as he sees fit. I can't be heard to say the Army have had a good idea, so we should abandon all such talk immediately. :PDT_Xtremez_06:

[KingGuin]

At my gaff I have "control" over all TG17 with the exception of the Sqn SNCOs and JNCOs. However the AC posts on those Sqns are on my establishment and I "lend" them to the Sqns on a semi-permanent basis. This serves to ensure communication is maintained between us and the Sqns and more importantly the Sqns themselves. Ideally I would like to have control of the SNCO/JNCO posts too but politics, as ever, prevent me. Now if I could only convince Sqn OCs as a SNCO TG17 I might actually have a clue what is best for the clerks................................

[Boarderlyne]

[QUOTE=Humble Scribe;114122]Sometimes the Chf Clk's hands are tied as personnel are posted on to the Wg's/Sqn's and not to the Stn as a whole for the Chf Clk to distribute. That's my point really, the CC needs carte blanche authority to move his clks as he/she sees fit.[/QUOTE}

Not the best idea IMHO. As TG17, we are usually serving in digital posts on Wgs/Sqns these days and how can we help the guys who need the most help if we are moved willy-nilly around the Sqns or the Stn? We need to identify with those that we are assisting and how can we do that if we know that in 18/12/6 months, we will be moved out of that Unit and into another and don't need to give a F***? The workers will do their damndest to help people as much as they can, but the blaggers will, as usual, get away with doing snot all and get the Prom recs as they can talk the talk and BS their way into getting the next rank up.

Unit Clks are a great way of learning what the RAF is all about, whether it be in 1 Sqn Rock Central or TCW. It aids us in empathising with the people that are deploying and knowing how much pain Joe/Joanna Bloggs is going through as he/she is posted within 2 weeks of returning from being OOA as rough examples. We also need to ensure that the kids straight out of training are properly supervised so that they know what is expected of them and they can aim towards the lofty heights of Sneck-dom.

[KingGuin]

As TG17, we are usually serving in digital posts on Wgs/Sqns[/B] these days and how can we help the guys who need the most help if we are moved willy-nilly around the Sqns or the Stn? We need to identify with those that we are assisting and how can we do that if we know that in 18/12/6 months, we will be moved out of that Unit and into another and don't need to give a F***? The workers will do their damndest to help people as much as they can, but the blaggers will, as usual, get away with doing snot all and get the Prom recs as they can talk the talk and BS their way into getting the next rank up.
Unit Clks are a great way of learning what the RAF is all about, whether it be in 1 Sqn Rock Central or TCW. It aids us in empathising with the people that are deploying and knowing how much pain Joe/Joanna Bloggs is going through as he/she is posted within 2 weeks of returning from being OOA as rough examples. We also need to ensure that the kids straight out of training are properly supervised so that they know what is expected of them and they can aim towards the lofty heights of Sneck-dom.

Borderlyne I find your opinion interesting however:
1. Digital Posts on Wgs/Sqns - not for much longer. PFA footprint will advocate devolvement under control of Chf Clk/WO PMS.
2. Needing Help - do you think those in "digital TG 17 posts" are best placed to determine whom/where Stn wide needs most help?
3. Time in post - We make it work OOA, why not elsewhere. I suggest this is more about taking a clerk out of their comfort zone than anything else.
4. Blaggers - With the FMDL at the current level and staffing critical across the board I wonder if we still have blaggers? I can honestly say there are none where I work.
5. OOA empathy etc - I am going OOA - again - a number of my clerks are currently OOA with more about to go. Welcome to empathy central.

That aside, having read the differing opinions across the thread I can be sure that whatever cunning plan the TS comes up with it certainly won't please everyone!

[Humble Scribe]

That aside, having read the differing opinions across the thread I can be sure that whatever cunning plan the TS comes up with it certainly won't please everyone!

To be honest KG, I don't think he's got one! If he has, he needs to let us all know about it PDQ because I think we're getting very near to breaking point as a trade.

Boarderlyne; my suggestion that all Clk's should come under the Chief was generally aimed at AC level for Career Management purposes. When we reach the dizzy heights of Cpl & above, we need some stability and experience; by retaining the experience at JNCO/SNCO level, this should allow Chf Clk's to Career Manage their SAC's.

[tommo9999]

To be honest KG, I don't think he's got one! If he has, he needs to let us all know about it PDQ because I think we're getting very near to breaking point as a trade.

Boarderlyne; my suggestion that all Clk's should come under the Chief was generally aimed at AC level for Career Management purposes. When we reach the dizzy heights of Cpl & above, we need some stability and experience; by retaining the experience at JNCO/SNCO level, this should allow Chf Clk's to Career Manage their SAC's.

On the contrary, I do believe he's got a plan, it's just taking a wee while to be publicised.

For what it's worth, I think all TG17 should be controlled by the Chf Clk. A central focus, single POC would give some direction to the JR's; SNCOs around the Unit could then be used for mentoring/training purposes perhaps. There's no easy, one size fits all solution, but there needs to be a change somewhere I think.

[shiny_arse]

On the contrary, I do believe he's got a plan, it's just taking a wee while to be publicised.

For what it's worth, I think all TG17 should be controlled by the Chf Clk. A central focus, single POC would give some direction to the JR's; SNCOs around the Unit could then be used for mentoring/training purposes perhaps. There's no easy, one size fits all solution, but there needs to be a change somewhere I think.

It appears to be a common theme on a lot of the threads that TG17 needs to be controlled centrally on a Stn by the Chf Clk and it's something that I concur with. However, it all harps back to the original post by HS that we need to address the training and retenetion first and foremost.

However back to main topic, I am too stuck in a position where Admin seems to come as a secondary observation by the majority of our commissioned brethren (i.e informing us of accommodation changes a day before departing on exercise!!). My relevatively experienced SAC has PVR'd and it looks likely that the replacement is going to be a brand new shiny. Whereas I'm happy that I'm going to get a replacement in, I am slightly concerned that a first tourist is going to end up working in an environment where there are 3 Jnr ranks and the admin office takes up 2 of those posts.

Surely it would be more beneficial that PSF takes in the new LAC to their umbrella to establish him/her into the admin environment whilst sending out a more experienced clerk who is not going to be in awe of having to deal with so many officers and will be more inclined to say NO when the need arises.

That said, are Chief Clerks going to be willing to take their clerks in the required direction?. I have worked with several over the years whose entire focus is based within either SHQ or civvy street. It is going to take a lot of commitment in order to sucessfully manage a multitude of ranks and experience whilst producing a worthwhile output.

[Humble Scribe]

On the contrary, I do believe he's got a plan, it's just taking a wee while to be publicised.

It was a little bit of a tonge in cheek comment Tommo but something needs to happen soon just to give the youngsters a bit of a steer what their future will be; a lot of them seem to be looking at civvy street right now and who can blame them?

[Humble Scribe]

Surely it would be more beneficial that PSF takes in the new LAC to their umbrella to establish him/her into the admin environment whilst sending out a more experienced clerk who is not going to be in awe of having to deal with so many officers and will be more inclined to say NO when the need arises.

It's something we discussed only a week or so ago shiny but none of them want to come and work for you!!

[shiny_arse]

It's something we discussed only a week or so ago shiny but none of them want to come and work for you!!

Doh!! Mind you looking at some of your biffs guess that may work both ways! ::P:

Anyhow, I take it my point is a valid one and that it appears pretty pointless sticking a LAC into my establishment at present. Additionally, why restrict it to the PSF empire. There is surely enough other opportunites to farm out one of your lot to the Sqn's to give them some growbag experience whilst throwing one of the Sqn clerks in my direction whilst PSF gains the LAC.?

[tommo9999]

I would hope the Chf Clk would look upon your issue carefully and with sympathy SA. We just need (as a trade) to be a little smarter about how we operate. As has been said previously, the days of the "best" clerks working in SHQ/PSF/HR are, or should be, a thing of the past. I hope.

[KingGuin]

I would hope the Chf Clk would look upon your issue carefully and with sympathy SA. We just need (as a trade) to be a little smarter about how we operate. As has been said previously, the days of the "best" clerks working in SHQ/PSF/HR are, or should be, a thing of the past. I hope.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the advent of devolvement will, in theory, spread experience across the Unit; we have devolved and 8 months later and teething problems dealt with, it has worked. The PFA footprint will change and no doubt will meet resistance from those with a PSF bunker mentality. I've said it before and I'll say it again - if we are to survive as a trade we must embrace change not resist it.

[shiny_arse]

I would hope the Chf Clk would look upon your issue carefully and with sympathy SA. We just need (as a trade) to be a little smarter about how we operate. As has been said previously, the days of the "best" clerks working in SHQ/PSF/HR are, or should be, a thing of the past. I hope.

You would think so in this day and age, however we can but sit and watch and await hopefully a sucessful outcome.

To come slightly off-topic however to address recruitment and retention and something that may be of use to the SNCO and Chf Clerks amongst us, where on earth has the old days of the Admin socials gone to?

Back in the early 90s it used to be a regular occurrence that all the TG17 on station would gravitate towards SHQ for at least a monthly (if not weekly beercall). Is it a reflection on our trade or to the RAF as a whole that we have become so insular?

It's not helped by the fact that the TG17's 5-a-side appears to have been put on the backburner apart from the efforts of a few traditionalists to keep the momentum flowing. Is this something that needs to be adressed by the trade as a whole to get the old camerarderie up and running again. I would aim this particularly at anyone within the Southwick Park empire. As the new home of Admin is there not an opportunity to get some type of annual social get together.

One of the best nights of my admin life was returning for the closure of RAF Hereford. Surely there are those amongst us that would relish the challenge of getting the Trade together for an almighty ****-up?. At present the closest thing that we've had was the JPA training last year!!!

[tommo9999]

You would think so in this day and age, however we can but sit and watch and await hopefully a sucessful outcome.

To come slightly off-topic however to address recruitment and retention and something that may be of use to the SNCO and Chf Clerks amongst us, where on earth has the old days of the Admin socials gone to?

Back in the early 90s it used to be a regular occurrence that all the TG17 on station would gravitate towards SHQ for at least a monthly (if not weekly beercall). Is it a reflection on our trade or to the RAF as a whole that we have become so insular?

It's not helped by the fact that the TG17's 5-a-side appears to have been put on the backburner apart from the efforts of a few traditionalists to keep the momentum flowing. Is this something that needs to be adressed by the trade as a whole to get the old camerarderie up and running again. I would aim this particularly at anyone within the Southwick Park empire. As the new home of Admin is there not an opportunity to get some type of annual social get together.

One of the best nights of my admin life was returning for the closure of RAF Hereford. Surely there are those amongst us that would relish the challenge of getting the Trade together for an almighty ****-up?. At present the closest thing that we've had was the JPA training last year!!!

It's another good point, but most TG17 are too busy worrying about the Trade to think about a trade-wide p!ssup. That said, the Stn get togethers were a great way of networking and picking up top tips from others on the Unit. It's a fair while since I was on a large Unit, but it would be sad if they were lost forever.

[shiny_arse]

It's another good point, but most TG17 are too busy worrying about the Trade to think about a trade-wide p!ssup. That said, the Stn get togethers were a great way of networking and picking up top tips from others on the Unit. It's a fair while since I was on a large Unit, but it would be sad if they were lost forever.

Fair enough, however is now not actually the ideal time to think about a trade-wide wassa. The SNECS got to enjoy the Chf Clks conference after all!! What's the difference?. A prime time weekend including the Trade Sponsors at a suitable location could clear up so many grey areas and those at the bottom of the food chain could feel suitably included as to what is going on.

[KingGuin]

Fair enough, however is now not actually the ideal time to think about a trade-wide wassa. The SNECS got to enjoy the Chf Clks conference after all!! What's the difference?. A prime time weekend including the Trade Sponsors at a suitable location could clear up so many grey areas and those at the bottom of the food chain could feel suitably included as to what is going on.

An admirable idea but I can't really see the TS giving up his weekend to put himself in the firing line. I think what we (regardless of rank) want is clear direction and for that direction to come sooner rather than later. Whenever it does come and whatever the content we are the ones who are going to have to sell it to the troops and make it work. Cynical but true I feel!

[tommo9999]

The SNECS got to enjoy the Chf Clks conference after all!! What's the difference?.

Enjoy????? You're having a laugh aren't you??? Poorest conference I have witnessed, most of the delegates left with a real sense of disappointment.

[shiny_arse]

Enjoy????? You're having a laugh aren't you??? Poorest conference I have witnessed, most of the delegates left with a real sense of disappointment.

The few I spoke seemed to enjoy the conference, well the night portion of it anyway, and only what they could remember of that in the first place!!

[Humble Scribe]

Back in the early 90s it used to be a regular occurrence that all the TG17 on station would gravitate towards SHQ for at least a monthly (if not weekly beercall). Is it a reflection on our trade or to the RAF as a whole that we have become so insular?

You supply the beer, we'll supply the location!! Shiny Scot is always looking for a drinking partner so there's a start, all you have to do now is find some more mates!

[Boarderlyne]

Borderlyne I find your opinion interesting however:
1. Digital Posts on Wgs/Sqns - not for much longer. PFA footprint will advocate devolvement under control of Chf Clk/WO PMS.
Agree that development of any clerk should fall under the remit of the Chf Clk, but having a clerk on a Sqn/Wg shouldn't mean that the clerk feels like a dog with two masters with the Sqn WO and the Chf Clk both 'advising' him.
2. Needing Help - do you think those in "digital TG 17 posts" are best placed to determine whom/where Stn wide needs most help?.
No, and have not said that, but the digital TG17 is there to advise Unit members who they need to talk to when a problem is above the digital clerk's pay band.
3. Time in post - We make it work OOA, why not elsewhere. I suggest this is more about taking a clerk out of their comfort zone than anything else.While I agree that moving a junior SAC onto another post where they can gain valuable trade experience is a great idea, we shouldn't just move people for the sake of it. A lot to be said for clerks knowing the troops that they look after and any 'special needs' that a person might have.
4. Blaggers - With the FMDL at the current level and staffing critical across the board I wonder if we still have blaggers? I can honestly say there are none where I work.Aren't you lucky KG! :PDT_Xtremez_30: There are still some out there, they have just learned to hide it more effectively.
5. OOA empathy etc - I am going OOA - again - a number of my clerks are currently OOA with more about to go. Welcome to empathy central.Done 4 already and looking at no 5 in about a years time! And I have never served on a Rock or Flying Sqn!

That aside, having read the differing opinions across the thread I can be sure that whatever cunning plan the TS comes up with it certainly won't please everyone!No plan has ever survived contact with reality is all I can say! As long as the plan give TG17 a viable future in blue suits, then I will be more than happy to support it.

[tommo9999]

No plan has ever survived contact with reality is all I can say! As long as the plan give TG17 a viable future in blue suits, then I will be more than happy to support it.

Couldn't agree more. It is the uncertainty that is keeping people down at the moment. I'm sure the Trade can survive, but it will be far from easy, and some of the "old & bold" will have to change their ways of thinking about how we do business.

[KingGuin]

some of the "old & bold" will have to change their ways of thinking about how we do business.

and I think Tommo, that sums the whole thing up!

[True Blue Jack]

In my former life as an almost exclusively PSF clerk, I would have agreed wholeheartedly that the Chf Clk should have control over the professional development of all the Pers Admin on his unit.

Since being posted onto a Sqn however, I have taken the opposite view. The rapport you build up with the guys once you are accepted as "their clerk" is key to getting them to do admin-type stuff (appraisals, OOA preps, Testimonials, etc.) that they would rather not be doing. If we are moved around every few months you take away the opportunity to build that rapport and administration in each Wg/Sqn and the Stn as a whole will take a downturn.

Plus, of course, with the Chf Clk in control you open up the possibility of croneyism. Like it or not, PSF will again be filled with (depending on the personality of the Chf Clk) either the best adminers, or the best-looking adminers. We've all seen it before, and I would rather not go back down that road.

[Humble Scribe]

Plus, of course, with the Chf Clk in control you open up the possibility of croneyism. Like it or not, PSF will again be filled with (depending on the personality of the Chf Clk) either the best adminers, or the best-looking adminers. We've all seen it before, and I would rather not go back down that road.

Thanks very much, you're not bad yourself!!

[Shinyscot]

You supply the beer, we'll supply the location!! Shiny Scot is always looking for a drinking partner so there's a start, all you have to do now is find some more mates!

You calling me an Alcoholic? :PDT_Xtremez_28:

[busby1971]

I love this word, banded around whenever there is a need to cut/downgrade posts, as mentioned earlier many of our slowly learn the air force LAC/SAC posts have been civilianised and rightly so. The need for having a blue (or CS95 with badges) shirt in there should be to meet a realistic operational committment, provide a steady career progression for those that aspire to it and maintain the skills/experience required when we are deployed.

If this does not quite tie into the perfect trade management triange then the trade should not be mangled to fit it.

Working with the Army, the Navy are generally very similar in attitude, can be a nightmare, there is little if any respect for the RAF Ethos, and due to the empowerment in the RAF we will always be underranked when compared with their AGC(SPS) Clks, underranked also means under rewarded fiscally and career wise.

If you want to get rid of a few Cpl/Sgt posts lets start with the PA/outer office jobs, not just Stn but Cmd level too, the use of service people in these posts is more linked to the requirement to be overworked rather than corporate image.

I value myself and my trade, I feel we always have an opportunity to provide a value added administrative service to the wider service community and if we don't we cannot justify our existence, the triangle will never work (although it may be forced through like most other things) in our trade and whilst empowerment can rewarding and challenging, it should not be a abused but rewarded.

There will always be a need for our trade, in one shape or another, it would be nice to have a trade that is worth staying in.

[ForgottenName]

"If you want to get rid of a few Cpl/Sgt posts lets start with the PA/outer office jobs, not just Stn but Cmd level too, the use of service people in these posts is more linked to the requirement to be overworked rather than corporate image."

Can't agree more with that comment. I believe it is often heard that the post has to be a blue suiter just in case the principal wants to work past 5 'o' clock.

[tommo9999]

"If you want to get rid of a few Cpl/Sgt posts lets start with the PA/outer office jobs, not just Stn but Cmd level too, the use of service people in these posts is more linked to the requirement to be overworked rather than corporate image."

Can't agree more with that comment. I believe it is often heard that the post has to be a blue suiter just in case the principal wants to work past 5 'o' clock.


Absolutely. Everyone knows it was a case of start early finish late, but get a decent appraisal and/or a commendation.

[True Blue Jack]

Hot off the press today. CinC AIR paid a visit to my place today. I'm not important enough to have been invited to tea and toast but my adj came back saying that he accepted JPA had gone too far and that we need more administrators, not fewer. Unfortunately the word "empowerment" also came into the conversation more than once.

[Humble Scribe]

I had a 'chat' (indirectly) with AMP yesterday. He is looking to empower JNCO's more with the 'Standards' post on units being at JNCO level and a rolling detechment to the JPAC (JNCO's again) for mutual learning. Suggested the JNCO's for CM idea so who know's if that'll take on.

[ForgottenName]

TBJ & HS.

Am very interested and pleased to hear your comments; it seems like our trade has some high support.

[Kernow]

DACOS A1 visited a london unit this week and is quoted as saying that there is a future for the trade. The trade will reduce to 1377 posts by Apr 08, the emphasis on the trade is to become HR focused. He believed that the rest of the Air Farce had come to appreciate the job that TG17 was doing. During his chat he discussed items like JPA and admitted that it was rolled out too quickly.

[busbyboy]

At my gaff I have "control" over all TG17 with the exception of the Sqn SNCOs and JNCOs. However the AC posts on those Sqns are on my establishment and I "lend" them to the Sqns on a semi-permanent basis. This serves to ensure communication is maintained between us and the Sqns and more importantly the Sqns themselves. Ideally I would like to have control of the SNCO/JNCO posts too but politics, as ever, prevent me. Now if I could only convince Sqn OCs as a SNCO TG17 I might actually have a clue what is best for the clerks................................

The intent was always that ALL TG17 personnel would come under OC Admin Wg (BSW) - aka WO PMS/Chf Clk - to enable a strategic view to be taken of operational requirements. In particular, with devolvement of P2/P3 (HR) services out from SHQ, and cross-training/multi-skilling of all staff, it would provide a degree of redundancy (sic...!) to backfill any gaps in the event of operational deployment, e.g. on NRF etc. The essential ingredient in this recipe is still lacking however - changing the establishment from the Sqns/Ops/Eng to Admin. Stn Execs signed up to this at a Management Board meeting, and it was minuted. Nevertheless, I fully understand the point about politics, but where there is a will...

[True Blue Jack]

The intent was always that ALL TG17 personnel would come under OC Admin Wg (BSW) - aka WO PMS/Chf Clk - to enable a strategic view to be taken of operational requirements. In particular, with devolvement of P2/P3 (HR) services out from SHQ, and cross-training/multi-skilling of all staff, it would provide a degree of redundancy (sic...!) to backfill any gaps in the event of operational deployment, e.g. on NRF etc. The essential ingredient in this recipe is still lacking however - changing the establishment from the Sqns/Ops/Eng to Admin. Stn Execs signed up to this at a Management Board meeting, and it was minuted. Nevertheless, I fully understand the point about politics, but where there is a will...

Good luck telling the Stn Cdr that Sgt Smith has worked in his outer office for long enough and he needs to work on a Front Line Sqn for a while for career development.

[busbyboy]

Good luck telling the Stn Cdr that Sgt Smith has worked in his outer office for long enough and he needs to work on a Front Line Sqn for a while for career development.

Agree entirely, however fortunately there is no Sgt Smith in such a post on this Stn - but point well made. Didn't say it was easy, just right.

[ForgottenName]

The intent was always that ALL TG17 personnel would come under OC Admin Wg (BSW) - aka WO PMS/Chf Clk - to enable a strategic view to be taken of operational requirements. In particular, with devolvement of P2/P3 (HR) services out from SHQ, and cross-training/multi-skilling of all staff, it would provide a degree of redundancy (sic...!) to backfill any gaps in the event of operational deployment, e.g. on NRF etc. The essential ingredient in this recipe is still lacking however - changing the establishment from the Sqns/Ops/Eng to Admin. Stn Execs signed up to this at a Management Board meeting, and it was minuted. Nevertheless, I fully understand the point about politics, but where there is a will...

It is interesting to note that you used the term WO PMS. I know that there is much discussion going on at the moment regarding whether the WO should be PMS or PSF. My opinion is that it should be PMS, but some disagree.

[ForgottenName]

I had a 'chat' (indirectly) with AMP yesterday. He is looking to empower JNCO's more with the 'Standards' post on units being at JNCO level and a rolling detechment to the JPAC (JNCO's again) for mutual learning. Suggested the JNCO's for CM idea so who know's if that'll take on.

Have you spoken to the Trade Sponsor regarding the above. I know that he would be interested in what the AMP had to say.

[ForgottenName]

The intent was always that ALL TG17 personnel would come under OC Admin Wg (BSW) - aka WO PMS/Chf Clk - to enable a strategic view to be taken of operational requirements. In particular, with devolvement of P2/P3 (HR) services out from SHQ, and cross-training/multi-skilling of all staff, it would provide a degree of redundancy (sic...!) to backfill any gaps in the event of operational deployment, e.g. on NRF etc. The essential ingredient in this recipe is still lacking however - changing the establishment from the Sqns/Ops/Eng to Admin. Stn Execs signed up to this at a Management Board meeting, and it was minuted. Nevertheless, I fully understand the point about politics, but where there is a will...

I think that we need to publicise the support that you are getting at your unit to all units. I know that there are some units that the station executives are hesitant in signing up to what your unit is.

[ForgottenName]

Good luck telling the Stn Cdr that Sgt Smith has worked in his outer office for long enough and he needs to work on a Front Line Sqn for a while for career development.

However, I think that you may be missing a subtle point. It will probably always remain within the Stn Cdr's remit to move people around at his unit; however, I heard it from the A1 Assurance Team that units will be assessed on their output. I don't think that the A1 Assurance Team will be too bothered if the Stn Cdr has missed an appointment but it is another matter if people are not getting paid properly on his unit because there is no supervision in PSF.

[tommo9999]

However, I think that you may be missing a subtle point. It will probably always remain within the Stn Cdr's remit to move people around at his unit; however, I heard it from the A1 Assurance Team that units will be assessed on their output. I don't think that the A1 Assurance Team will be too bothered if the Stn Cdr has missed an appointment but it is another matter if people are not getting paid properly on his unit because there is no supervision in PSF.

No, but the Stn Cdr will want someones 'arris for missing the appt won't he?? And it won't be the A1 Assurance Team in the firing line, it'll be WO PMS/PSF/HR/Admin.

[Humble Scribe]

Have you spoken to the Trade Sponsor regarding the above. I know that he would be interested in what the AMP had to say.

No, but I would imagine that the Trade Sponsor would be aware of what AMP was planning; it was virtually what he was talking about at the APC.

[ForgottenName]

No, but the Stn Cdr will want someones 'arris for missing the appt won't he?? And it won't be the A1 Assurance Team in the firing line, it'll be WO PMS/PSF/HR/Admin.


However, if you look around the units I think you will find a mix bag of civilians, cpls and SNCOs carrying out the task. We should not also insult the intelligence of Stn Cdrs to utilise the individual who is employed as the PA to the best advantage.

[True Blue Jack]

However, if you look around the units I think you will find a mix bag of civilians, cpls and SNCOs carrying out the task. We should not also insult the intelligence of Stn Cdrs to utilise the individual who is employed as the PA to the best advantage.

I think we are straying off topic. I think it very likely that Stn Cdrs' PAs across the board will be civilianised in the near future anyway, but whether they are or not PA jobs make up only a tiny proportion of the trade as a whole.

[ForgottenName]

I think we are straying off topic. I think it very likely that Stn Cdrs' PAs across the board will be civilianised in the near future anyway, but whether they are or not PA jobs make up only a tiny proportion of the trade as a whole.

TBJ. What I was trying to say that I believe that any post that is outside of the main core of TG17 is vulnerable to be changed as you note above.

[busby1971]

TBJ. What I was trying to say that I believe that any post that is outside of the main core of TG17 is vulnerable to be changed as you note above.

What is considered core nowadays?

Jobs (postings) back in blighty should surely provide a genuine function, maintain the skills required for when on ops, stretch the individual and provide career development (as both a Pers Admin and Air(wo)man) and allow a period a personal stability until the next ever more frequent det.

Back on track now...

[Humble Scribe]

Core is the PFA whether it be in PSF, Sqn/Wg Admin they all do the same job effectively. Leaves PA's, TD, registries even, dare I say, CM's etc at risk. Suits me fine but there'll be many worried shiney out there!

[tommo9999]

Core is the PFA whether it be in PSF, Sqn/Wg Admin they all do the same job effectively. Leaves PA's, TD, registries even, dare I say, CM's etc at risk. Suits me fine but there'll be many worried shiney out there!

I agree that PFA is core TG17. Regarding CM's I'm not so sure. Would our pers be content being drafted by civilians, and all that brings? It routinely comes up for discussion, but for as long as I can recall, every Air Sec has stated that blue suits will be drafted by blue suits.

[Humble Scribe]

I agree that PFA is core TG17. Regarding CM's I'm not so sure. Would our pers be content being drafted by civilians, and all that brings? It routinely comes up for discussion, but for as long as I can recall, every Air Sec has stated that blue suits will be drafted by blue suits.

That's a change of tune from you! I thought you were an advocate of civvies in CM slot's or at least holding the belief that it will happen one day. Wouldn't like to see it myself but I'm sure the day will come sooner or later; hopefully not while I'm still wearing a blue suit though!

[tommo9999]

I'm not convinced of the benefits of civvies becoming CM's, but I think it will happen. Eventually.

[KingGuin]

I'm not convinced of the benefits of civvies becoming CM's, but I think it will happen. Eventually.

The Army have employed civilians in that role for years. However interestingly enough the troops are managed by civil servants while their officer cadre is managed by ROs!

[True Blue Jack]

The Army have employed civilians in that role for years. However interestingly enough the troops are managed by civil servants while their officer cadre is managed by ROs!

Army drafting is done very differently from ours. In reality, soldiers' careers are managed at unit level by RCMOs (usually a WO1 or Captain commissioned from the ranks) and Division SO2s. The "drafter" at the relevant MCM Div does no more or less than put bums on seats.

It would be like having all careers on station managed personally by WO PMS/PSF.

[ForgottenName]

[quote=tommo9999;119991]I agree that PFA is core TG17. quote]

You are spot on there Tommo999. The big clue is in what we train the PABCs at RAFSA before they become productive.

[ForgottenName]

Army drafting is done very differently from ours. In reality, soldiers' careers are managed at unit level by RCMOs (usually a WO1 or Captain commissioned from the ranks) and Division SO2s. The "drafter" at the relevant MCM Div does no more or less than put bums on seats.

It would be like having all careers on station managed personally by WO PMS/PSF.

TBJ, it is interesting to see how the RN conduct drafting. You may wish to have a look at the Waterfront Manning Offices at those units that have aircraft that can hover.

[ForgottenName]

In respect of Career Managers (drafters in old money) I believe that the move to H-W is going to cause them significant problems - for no other reason than there may not be enough space. Also, I believe that there may be additional AO work for them with the introduction of the new appraisal as people move from post to post.

In 1998, the then Sec Sponsor stated that "Chf Clks were RAF PMA's agents on the ground". Therefore, I was wondering whether we could develop that concept.

[Humble Scribe]

In 1998, the then Sec Sponsor stated that "Chf Clks were RAF PMA's agents on the ground". Therefore, I was wondering whether we could develop that concept.

Spot on FN and something we've discussed in the shiney Forum. CC's should develop their LAC/SAC's managing them on Stn and ensuring that the are posted to an appropriate post at an appropriate time. It's not going to be easy but it certainly needs looking into.

[tommo9999]

Absolutely. Chf Clk's should be left alone (and therefore trusted) to manage their people locally.

[True Blue Jack]

I've been watching how the engineers on my Sqns are moved around between their core trade and other jobs, e.g., Rects control, SLOC, etc. One of the many things they gain from this is an appreciation of how the whole engineering team works, and how they fit into the grand scheme. It also builds redundancies into the system so that if the incumbent Rects Controller goes long term sick there is always at least one other person with recent experience in the role. Somehow they manage to do it without losing continuity.

It galls me to say it (lol), but we have a lot to learn from the engineers' approach. More importantly, I think there could be a future role for TG17 in taking the squadron approach and expanding it across a whole station (and further).

[KingGuin]

I've been watching how the engineers on my Sqns are moved around between their core trade and other jobs, e.g., Rects control, SLOC, etc. One of the many things they gain from this is an appreciation of how the whole engineering team works, and how they fit into the grand scheme. It also builds redundancies into the system so that if the incumbent Rects Controller goes long term sick there is always at least one other person with recent experience in the role. Somehow they manage to do it without losing continuity.

It galls me to say it (lol), but we have a lot to learn from the engineers' approach. More importantly, I think there could be a future role for TG17 in taking the squadron approach and expanding it across a whole station (and further).

TBJ - I shuffle my lot already. My original rationale was personnel (and personal) development. However the ongoing (and ongoing) TG17 review alongside the FMDL, operational deployments and sickness etc etc means that my troops are shuffled more from necessity than desire. As for adopting engineering practices, TG17 here have been subject to QA for almost a year and without exception admit it works.

[busbyboy]

TBJ - I shuffle my lot already. My original rationale was personnel (and personal) development. However the ongoing (and ongoing) TG17 review alongside the FMDL, operational deployments and sickness etc etc means that my troops are shuffled more from necessity than desire. As for adopting engineering practices, TG17 here have been subject to QA for almost a year and without exception admit it works.

KG, as you well know, I was heavily involved in the advance of QA at said Unit, and am pleased to see it thriving. However, it is now time to move to the next stage of integrating into the Stn QCIT system and embrace independent audit (as opposed to self audit) organised by the QCM as part of the schedule. Only by doing this, can we (you) be confident that HR is doing what it says on the tin. It will happen anyway, probably sooner rather than later, so carpe diem and all that bull. I understand that you now have time on your hands since my successor arrived, or was that the red wine talking on Fri...!

[ForgottenName]

KG, as you well know, I was heavily involved in the advance of QA at said Unit, and am pleased to see it thriving. However, it is now time to move to the next stage of integrating into the Stn QCIT system and embrace independent audit (as opposed to self audit) organised by the QCM as part of the schedule. Only by doing this, can we (you) be confident that HR is doing what it says on the tin. It will happen anyway, probably sooner rather than later, so carpe diem and all that bull. I understand that you now have time on your hands since my successor arrived, or was that the red wine talking on Fri...!

Independent, as in by a trade non-specialist, ie, external auditor, is fine if the instructions that the operators are following are right in the first place.

[busby1971]

Spent time on an Engineering Unit and I loved the QA side of things.

Each Task/job/process was broken down to almost MacJob level and amended to cope with rule and other changes (by the incumbent). This not only listed the admin actions but also the applicant/customer actions.

By having a standard to follow, anybody could come along and do the job just as long as the 'manual' was comprehensive and complete. This would make moving people around a lot easier and would help to ensure that there is a best practice out there.

There is a need to have a latent general trade knowledge, the wider view about how things work, sitting in your grey matter but being an expert in only one area and only knowing that area is not the best, get us all moving around and we will all understand the pressures, pains and joys of each others jobs.

But there should be a plan for each individual, they should have a rough idea of when they are going to be moved (subject to the usual caveats) and where to. Individual goals should be put in place to ensure and individual does not treat each post as a quick stepping stone but a job that requires their best efforts. If it results in the best gyrating towards PSF (or what ever you want to call it) then they should have had a chance to work around the station first.

One of the better aspects of the QA manual was the onus on the customer to follow the process as well, great for chasing up 6000s, and highlighting where the real admin problems lay.

[ForgottenName]

Spent time on an Engineering Unit and I loved the QA side of things.

Each Task/job/process was broken down to almost MacJob level and amended to cope with rule and other changes (by the incumbent). This not only listed the admin actions but also the applicant/customer actions.

By having a standard to follow, anybody could come along and do the job just as long as the 'manual' was comprehensive and complete. This would make moving people around a lot easier and would help to ensure that there is a best practice out there.

There is a need to have a latent general trade knowledge, the wider view about how things work, sitting in your grey matter but being an expert in only one area and only knowing that area is not the best, get us all moving around and we will all understand the pressures, pains and joys of each others jobs.

But there should be a plan for each individual, they should have a rough idea of when they are going to be moved (subject to the usual caveats) and where to. Individual goals should be put in place to ensure and individual does not treat each post as a quick stepping stone but a job that requires their best efforts. If it results in the best gyrating towards PSF (or what ever you want to call it) then they should have had a chance to work around the station first.

One of the better aspects of the QA manual was the onus on the customer to follow the process as well, great for chasing up 6000s, and highlighting where the real admin problems lay.


QA has its uses and, for what it is worth, I believe that we may be going down that route. However, with the introduction of JPA, we have suffered from a lack of instruction. That is not because of a lack of willingness of any individual, but because the amount of change has been so significant, it has overwhelmed many. Because of this, many units started writing their own instructions; some are good but some could do with improving as they miss out important processes to follow. We now need to get a common standard so that we can improve what we do first before we get ourselves into the audit phase.

[busby1971]

QA ..... That is not because of a lack of willingness of any individual, but because the amount of change has been so significant, it has overwhelmed many. .... We now need to get a common standard so that we can improve what we do first before we get ourselves into the audit phase.

Is JPA and it's processes settled down enough to be stable enough to have a standard practice yet.

The Audit phase should be seen as a part of the best practice process, (which has been it's main role recently), the sooner we have a common set of processes the sooner those who develop the training programme can send out properly trained Pers Admin.

[tommo9999]

Is JPA and it's processes settled down enough to be stable enough to have a standard practice yet.

The Audit phase should be seen as a part of the best practice process, (which has been it's main role recently), the sooner we have a common set of processes the sooner those who develop the training programme can send out properly trained Pers Admin.

In answer to your question - JPA has settled down but not everyone is doing the same thing, so there has to be some standardisation across the board. QA or Assurance, call it whatever you want, is inevitable not least to reassure the operators that they are doing the right thing.

[True Blue Jack]

But first we need some commonality as to what the right thing is.

For example, at my unit every wg/sqn has a different approach to recording public holidays (none of which are foolproof). If we can't get something as trivial as that right, we've got a lot of work to do straighten things out.

[ForgottenName]

But first we need some commonality as to what the right thing is.

For example, at my unit every wg/sqn has a different approach to recording public holidays (none of which are foolproof). If we can't get something as trivial as that right, we've got a lot of work to do straighten things out.

In respect of the Public Holidays/leave/stand-down situation I believe that it is now recognised that it is a mess. I also know that the SME who worked at WD is very frustrated as their concerns were not addressed when the system was being built by the technics. However, to rectify it, I believe it that they might have to go right back to the drawing board. It will be interesting to see what occurs.

However, TBJ, I don't believe that it is a trivial matter. Ensuring personnel get the right amount of leave is pivotal in meeting the needs of the individual, against the needs of the task, and the Service and one which we have to get right. Whether we ever get a completely satisfying solution is another matter; we never actually got a Service wide standard with SAMA and the then rules contained in the AP.

[ForgottenName]

In answer to your question - JPA has settled down but not everyone is doing the same thing, so there has to be some standardisation across the board. QA or Assurance, call it whatever you want, is inevitable not least to reassure the operators that they are doing the right thing.

From what I have heard, the operators are doing the right thing. I have also heard that the course currently running at the RAFSA is the bees knees.

[tommo9999]

From what I have heard, the operators are doing the right thing. I have also heard that the course currently running at the RAFSA is the bees knees.

Yeah, I've heard good things about it. Do you know if they will be distributing stuff for those that couldn't get on the course?

[shiny_arse]

Yeah, I've heard good things about it. Do you know if they will be distributing stuff for those that couldn't get on the course?

From what I have been led to believe Tommo, the idea is that the info will be farmed out to all units and those who attended the course will return to their parent unit and train up the others.

[tommo9999]

From what I have been led to believe Tommo, the idea is that the info will be farmed out to all units and those who attended the course will return to their parent unit and train up the others.

I would have liked to go on the course, but pressure of work at the Rheindahlen metropolis prevented it .......

[True Blue Jack]

I didn't even know there was a course until a mate asked me when I was going. I don't think anyone from my corner of Bomber County has gone or even knows anything about it. It certainly hasn't been mentioned at any of our monthly TG17 group hugs.

[shiny_arse]

I would have liked to go on the course, but pressure of work at the Rheindahlen metropolis prevented it .......

The A1 Spec Spt team who visited the other week highly recommended it, however demand is far outstripping supply. Tried to put myself down on the reserve list and got told there was already 40 on it!!.

The high level of numbers looks to me as a good thing as is shows just how deparate TG17 is wanting to knock JPA into a decent system. Fingers crossed that by this time next year SAMA will be relegated to the same region of memory as cardex.

[ForgottenName]

I didn't even know there was a course until a mate asked me when I was going. I don't think anyone from my corner of Bomber County has gone or even knows anything about it. It certainly hasn't been mentioned at any of our monthly TG17 group hugs.


It may be worth going to see your Chf Clk to see if he has info on the course.

[True Blue Jack]

It may be worth going to see your Chf Clk to see if he has info on the course.

That was the point I was trying to make - if a little too subtly - there is very little information downflow here, especially with stuff that is generated off-unit. When I mentioned the HR Professional Users forum he said that "we are not ready for that, yet". Hell, I even had to go over his head to get details of the TG17 5-a-side.

[Humble Scribe]

Did the JPA course last week and I think it's essential for anyone working in the PFA area. Experience on the course varied but everyone took something out of the course, and the instructors were very good. I would say I knew 70% of what they were teaching, but I consider myself to be fairly au fait with JPA and use it daily; others that don't have every day useage of JPA will find it extremely informative and invaluable.

What surprised me though was that AMP or one of his deputies is to visit every course and collect the feed back from it such is the importance that is being placed on this course. Further, there is every intention to train all personnel on the reserve list, trainers permitting. So if you're not already nominated, put your name down and you should get a couple of nights out in Pompey!

[ForgottenName]

TBJ. I am sure that if you rang the Trade Sponsor direct, he would let you know the detail of the course that HS has laudably commented on. You could, of course, ring the RAFSA direct and get the same gen.

[shiny_arse]

TBJ. I am sure that if you rang the Trade Sponsor direct, he would let you know the detail of the course that HS has laudably commented on. You could, of course, ring the RAFSA direct and get the same gen.

Echoing forgotten TBJ, I would recommend contacting RAFSA directly, I can PM who you need to speak to if you require it. With the mass of personnel who have already been allocated to the limited courses being run and the reserves list ramping up hill at a fast rate of knots, there may be the chance of you sneaking in due to the fact that nobody has given you a heads up of any info in the first place.

[Boarderlyne]

The trainers are coming out here in a few months time. Won't say exactly but both Wobblies have the full details so it has gone from a 'got to do it' course to 'This sounds interesting!' course. PM if details needed. Good to hear that so many have positive feedback and will certainly help me as I battle the weirdness that is online SJAR.

[Kernow]

I didn't even know there was a course until a mate asked me when I was going. I don't think anyone from my corner of Bomber County has gone or even knows anything about it. It certainly hasn't been mentioned at any of our monthly TG17 group hugs.

Gotta say I've suffered the blinkered PSF syndrome here as well. I only found out about the course through a mate. When I checked with the PSF bods I was told that they had already loaded it with 2 PSF people. Being slighlty p1ssed about it is an understatement as prior to my current job I had only used JPA to change my next of kin and was now expected to be the font of all knowledge. Now as my unit are keen to push the very devolved user thing here it would seem sensible to look at sending someone who has no JPA experience on the course. It is only because of the A1 team visit that I am on the reserve list as I hadn't been told that either!

[Woodja]

On the course ATM - has been pretty useful to most folks (especially in my syndicate - mostly older SNCOs) even though I had been using a lot of the tools already. Also been shown a (almost legal, but not quite official) way to action internal postings without going through the hassle of getting assignment orders issued. The method is currently under review by a certain WO - hopefully more guidance will be forthcoming soon.

Currently, the reserve list is up to 83, and the school is under remit to train everyone on that list - so the courses have been extended to August at least.

We had our visit from AMP and his clingons this morning - half an hour of him chatting individually to all 10 of us asking our opinions on the course and on JPA itself - he instructed one of the Sgts to provide feedback direct to him in a couple of months on how FSIs are being handled (thats a direct phonecall to AMP)

The instructors have told us about the beer tour (sorry - their official visits to the MOBs) later in the year - more aimed at helping units out with specific problems/issues rather than the training course offered here - would therefore recomend anyone who hasn't been down for this course still apply if they can.

Off Topic On the downside, Dot's has closed at South Park, so no more lard injections on the way back from the pub.

[True Blue Jack]

Off Topic On the downside, Dot's has closed at South Park, so no more lard injections on the way back from the pub.

I'm not going then :PDT_Xtremez_31:

[woollymouse]

I'm off on the cse a week on Monday and I can't wait from what I've heard from the guys who have attended it is well worth 3 days down at South Park. The only downside for me will be having to pay for 3 days food due to the change that takes effect 1 Jul to det food charges, but I'm sure I can cope with about 9 quid coming out of my pay, which will be recovered by 3 days of incidental expenses.:PDT_Xtremez_30: