Career Management

[vinnyvx]

When reading posts in the Shiney forum I keep coming across references to CM, I assume this means Career Managers? Come off it, when did drafters ever manage anyone's career, other than their own. PMA/PMC/PMA/Manning have always had a bums on seats approach to supposed career management. I know Sgt TG17s who have full CIPD qualifications and they've been posted into SNCO GD Flt jobs, and no they weren't volunteers. I'm leaving the RAF(TG17) essentially because I'm bored with the work and it doesn't challenge me. I'd love to be a drafter at High Wycombe, however I can't because I don't have any recent PSF experience. I've tried getting into PSF and I can't do that because I don't have any recent PSF experience. I wouldn't mind but I'm probably better professionally (HR) qualified than most TG17 personnel, does that matter? No.

Drafters please don't call yourselves career managers, you aren't. Civilianise PMA it works for the Army in Glasgow and Air Sec 2(civil servant) manages to draft senior officers without any difficulty. It'll soon sort out the trade structure and remove the nepotism.

[rodger-dodger]

I'd love to be a drafter at High Wycombe,
.

You'd be the only Fecker there, they havn't moved yet.:PDT_Xtremez_42: .

[tommo9999]

Thought for a fair while about replying, but here goes:

CIPD qualifications never played a part in my discussions with any TG17 Sgt about his/her AOC. The truth is that it will never be possible to get everyone where they want to go.

Interested to note you would love to be a drafter at H Wycombe, you could respond to the current trawl asking for vols. Did Innsworth as a drafter never appeal, especially as it's been common knowledge that the organisation was moving to H Wycombe?

Civilianising PMA will definitely happen at some point, because those at the top of the RAF do not need (in their opinion) TG17 or Admin(Sec). However, the service provided by ACOS Manning will certainly reduce, not least because civilians will not routinely work very long hours and weekends just to keep their head above water.

Clearly there are always a number of differing opinions about the effectiveness of the PMC/PMA/ACOS Manning. Generally speaking however, the majority of complaints come from those who have never drafted, and who may not have the knowledge of what are frankly extremely complex regulations.

This reply may stir up a hornets nest of responses, but hey that's life.

[Man in Black]

Fair comment Tommo9999. I am TG17 and have never felt the need to complain about any of my postings as I have always got an area of choice except for on promotion, but as I accepted the promotion, I accepted the posting. I don't envy any of the Career Managers as it must be a thankless task. One that isn't made any easier by other TG17 persons constantly sniping about them.

[Humble Scribe]

One very big chip on the shoulder there Vinnyvx although I do have to agree with you on some points. Career Managers is a Gucci term for the drafters who move personnel from one unit to another to fill establishment vacancies. I doubt very much whether many of them worry how anyones career is managed, it's just moving someone from one location to another because that's where they've asked to go. That said how many of us are willing to go to a location that we don't fancy purely because there is a good job that may enhance our career prospects?

They've come up with the term Career Manager as it will sound good on a CV and I don't have any problem with that - best of luck to them, sounds better than SNCO HR! Truth is though, there's only one person I trust to manage my career and that's myself. With a little help and dialogue with the CM this is achieveable so long as you're willing to be patient and wait for the right opportunity to arise. No good sitting back and saying I can't get this and I can't get the other, yes you bl@@dy can if you want it enough, just takes some effort.

The Civilianisation of CM posts has arisen here before and I for one am against it. I believe that you need a sevice background to draft especially in list 1 trades. Maybe there is an arguement for support trades to be drafted by civvies but I doubt very much if many civvies would be wiling to put in all the time & effort required for the small remuneration that they would receive.

Whatever we think of CM's they do work bl@@dy hard to try and achieve our personnel asperations and, whilst not always successful, they do have the right mindset for the job which a civilian would not. Further, if they civilianised all the CM posts, who do you think would fill them? Yep, the same guys that do the job now with an 8 to 5 attitude which would achieve absolutely nothing for the average JNCO trying to get a posting to RAF Lincolnshire.

Personnally, I'd like to see CM's do at least 2 full tours before going back to ACOS Manning; this would open up CM opportunities for more personnel as well as giving the CM's a more diverse view of the service. I won't hold my breath though.

[tommo9999]

Personnally, I'd like to see CM's do at least 2 full tours before going back to ACOS Manning; this would open up CM opportunities for more personnel as well as giving the CM's a more diverse view of the service. I won't hold my breath though.

A fair enough point HS, but what is a full tour? How long should it be? And is it reasonable to deny a volunteer the chance to draft, when there are usually very few who ask to draft? I'm all for fresh faces to be brought in as CM's, but lots of our TG just simply do not want to do the job, either at Innsworth or H Wycombe. Maybe if PMA/ACOS Manning was to relocate to Lincolnshire there might be a few more interested ...........???

[Boarderlyne]

A fair enough point HS, but what is a full tour? How long should it be? And is it reasonable to deny a volunteer the chance to draft, when there are usually very few who ask to draft? I'm all for fresh faces to be brought in as CM's, but lots of our TG just simply do not want to do the job, either at Innsworth or H Wycombe. Maybe if PMA/ACOS Manning was to relocate to Lincolnshire there might be a few more interested ...........???

Personally, I wouldn't say no to a tour of drafting and have indicated it on my PoP. Only problem is that I do not have entry to the old folks home yet! :PDT_Xtremez_31: But if they were to give me the carrot of my third banana, then I wouldn't say no to being a CM. :PDT_Xtremez_28:

[Humble Scribe]

Personally, I wouldn't say no to a tour of drafting and have indicated it on my PoP. Only problem is that I do not have entry to the old folks home yet! :PDT_Xtremez_31: But if they were to give me the carrot of my third banana, then I wouldn't say no to being a CM. :PDT_Xtremez_28:

There's another option. Couldn't JNCO's draft SAC's/SAC(T)'s? It would give them some experience, which they could bring back later in their careers, bring some new blood into drafting and give the SNCO CM's some face to face supervisory responsibilities as well as partially re-addressing the trade pyramid . Winner!

[Shinyscot]

There's another option. Couldn't JNCO's draft SAC's/SAC(T)'s? It would give them some experience, which they could bring back later in their careers, bring some new blood into drafting and give the SNCO CM's some face to face supervisory responsibilities as well as partially re-addressing the trade pyramid . Winner!

Sounds like a plan. Would you really trust me to do that???

[True Blue Jack]

Personally, I wouldn't say no to a tour of drafting and have indicated it on my PoP. Only problem is that I do not have entry to the old folks home yet! :PDT_Xtremez_31: But if they were to give me the carrot of my third banana, then I wouldn't say no to being a CM. :PDT_Xtremez_28:

You and me both. HW is not an AOC, but I would accept a CM job wherever it happened to be located.

[Humble Scribe]

Sounds like a plan. Would you really trust me to do that???

Bu99er! You've found a flaw in my plan!! Does that answer your question?

[Kernow]

When reading posts in the Shiney forum I keep coming across references to CM, I assume this means Career Managers? Come off it, when did drafters ever manage anyone's career, other than their own. PMA/PMC/PMA/Manning have always had a bums on seats approach to supposed career management. I know Sgt TG17s who have full CIPD qualifications and they've been posted into SNCO GD Flt jobs, and no they weren't volunteers. I'm leaving the RAF(TG17) essentially because I'm bored with the work and it doesn't challenge me. I'd love to be a drafter at High Wycombe, however I can't because I don't have any recent PSF experience. I've tried getting into PSF and I can't do that because I don't have any recent PSF experience. I wouldn't mind but I'm probably better professionally (HR) qualified than most TG17 personnel, does that matter? No.

Drafters please don't call yourselves career managers, you aren't. Civilianise PMA it works for the Army in Glasgow and Air Sec 2(civil servant) manages to draft senior officers without any difficulty. It'll soon sort out the trade structure and remove the nepotism.

I know of a recent move to a CM post where the individual has not touched PSF for almost 10 years. Unless you have been placed in the ar5e end of nowhere for most of your career then you should have a fairly good working knowledge of PSF anyway, which should be reflected in your appraisal. I haven't worked in PSF since umm well since....... However, I keep up to date on with what is going on outside of my leave input and expense approving area incase one of the guys or girls comes into my office to ask for advice on something else.

My philosophy has always been if you don't ask you don't get. I have been asking for the last couple of years in anticipation of growing up. If there is a slot when I join the old folks home then hopefully I will be in with a shout.

[Blonde Bitch]

[QUOTE=tommo9999;111088]
Clearly there are always a number of differing opinions about the effectiveness of the PMC/PMA/ACOS Manning. Generally speaking however, the majority of complaints come from those who have never drafted, and who may not have the knowledge of what are frankly extremely complex regulations.

Well said, any TG17 SNCO should not complain unless they are willing to do the job themselves and see the reality. All ground trades are generally location driven, there are few personnel who actually volunteer to be Chf Clk regardless of location. The same for Career Management a catchall title to include officers drafting as well - they are career managed! However ground trades do not have that luxury regardless of what civilian qualifications we may gain.

[Boarderlyne]

I spent a massive 18 months in PSF in my 16 years plus and of those 18, I was on leave for over 2 months and OOA for 6! I loved doing pay queries as it gave a real sense of satisfaction to sort one out, but hated check sheets with an undiluted passion.

But outside of that, I have been lucky to work in digital posts and that has meant that I think IMNSHO that I have a better idea of what some of the Trade Groups go through rather than people who are stuck in Handbrake House or Ivory Towers for their whole career.

Cpl's as CMs? Why not? We moan about rank being diluted so why not make the JNCOs a bit more powerful. To the pongos and Rocks (no disrespect to either group), when a Cpl says Jump to a junior rank, the answer is 99% "How high and in metric or imperial?" and in some respects we need to bring that sort of 'line in the sand' distinction back between SACs and Cpls. Too often, the Cpl is supposed to be 'all mates together' so when he/she has to be a *******, they really get stick for it when all they are doing is what they are paid to do.

I know that most of the post has wandered distressingly off-topic, but when you think about it, it's not a bad idea. Most JNCO's work their bollocks off to get their third, so why not put them in a job where they are expected to show the maturity and awareness to gain their third?

[tommo9999]

The point about JNCO's as CMs is well made, and worthy of further discussion. I'm sure there are those older and bolder than myself who can remember Cpls working in the Trade Sqns in the dim and distant past. It has been done before, it could work again.

[fed_up_scribbly]

The suggection that JNCOs become CMs for SACs is one of the best suggestions I have heard in a long time. I can think of no reason why this would not work; whilst it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference to the rank pyramid, it would allow the post incumbent to prove themselves and give them a chance of having real responsibility - as well as giving SNCO CMs some experience at being a line manager and reporting officer, something that many of them are lacking. I also agree with the sentiment that CMs should complete a tour of at least 3 years in the outside world before being allowed back in - there are too many drafters now who have been stuck at Innsworth for far too long and need to come back down to earth and see the mess that the rest of us are having to deal with on a daily basis. Going off topic a little, I also feel that the term Career Manager is very misleading when it comes to those dealing with the ground trades - I have seen little evidence to suggest that anybodies career is "managed" - it's more an exercise of filling posts with whoever is available at the time and if the post happens to fulfil a personal aspiration then hey, that's a bonus.

[tommo9999]

One of the problems with Career Management is that we (The customer) are driven almost exclusively by one thing - location. Given the diverse positioning of our units (Valley, ISL/K, Marham, MOD, St Mawgan etc) it is just not possible to place everyone where they want to be. However, if pers were willing to take on the best job in career management terms, regardless of location, there would be scope to properly CM everyone. There would have to be things like fixed tour lengths etc etc which may not be to everyone's liking.

[Soon To Leave]

My 'Career Manager' is never available when I press the early termination button. Is this a problem with JPA functionality or availability of CMs?

[tommo9999]

My 'Career Manager' is never available when I press the early termination button. Is this a problem with JPA functionality or availability of CMs?

You need to have a CM allocated to you. It's a JPA thing.

[shiny_arse]

Sounds like a plan. Would you really trust me to do that???

NO!! :PDT_Xtremez_35:

[shiny_arse]

What's all the ballyhoo with TG17 wanting to be CM's anyway?. Hell the term itself it just another pretentious piece of verbal nonsense, designed to supposedly look good on a CV.

Anyroad, if you really want to have an impact on someones career why not take up one of the more demanding jobs that admin has to offer. Namely instructing at either RTS or SEC TS. Cannot recommend it highly enough and certainly a eye opener for one and all who normally whine about how standards have dropped in this day and age.

Don't get me wrong, nowt wrong with being a drafter and something that I would consider, but not at least until that application for the mess comes through the door and I get at least 1 tour under the belt.

[True Blue Jack]

What's all the ballyhoo with TG17 wanting to be CM's anyway?. Hell the term itself it just another pretentious piece of verbal nonsense, designed to supposedly look good on a CV.

Anyroad, if you really want to have an impact on someones career why not take up one of the more demanding jobs that admin has to offer. Namely instructing at either RTS or SEC TS. Cannot recommend it highly enough and certainly a eye opener for one and all who normally whine about how standards have dropped in this day and age.

Don't get me wrong, nowt wrong with being a drafter and something that I would consider, but not at least until that application for the mess comes through the door and I get at least 1 tour under the belt.

For a long time I harboured ambitions of being an instructor at SecTS, but experience taught me that I much prefer bringing new LACs up to Operational Performance Standard. I'm not belittling the work of SecTS but it's what happens in the months after PABC that shapes the whole career of a Pers Admin.

As for RTS - I would love it, but I recognise that the very long days and weekend work would put incredible strain on my family, so I have decided to forgo that opportunity.

I have accused various CMs of lazy drafting over the years. It's only fair that given the opportunity I should put my money where my mouth is.

[Boarderlyne]

For a long time I harboured ambitions of being an instructor at SecTS, but experience taught me that I much prefer bringing new LACs up to Operational Performance Standard. I'm not belittling the work of SecTS but it's what happens in the months after PABC that shapes the whole career of a Pers Admin.

As for RTS - I would love it, but I recognise that the very long days and weekend work would put incredible strain on my family, so I have decided to forgo that opportunity.

I have accused various CMs of lazy drafting over the years. It's only fair that given the opportunity I should put my money where my mouth is.

My problem would be a lack of patience with the recruits. While I am great with the slightly hard of thinking, if I know that somebody has the nonce to go far and doesn't use it, then I become extremely grumpy bas***d. I am happy to go anywhere and do any job, but I know where my limits are and RTS would probably push them to the limit and beyond. Either that or I would break the record for training alerts on a monthly basis! :PDT_Xtremez_15:

[Humble Scribe]

I note that the originator of this thread has not come back on this one! Perhaps a spot of Trolling going on?

Nice new Avater Tommo, and a MOD too - going up in the world!! (After being a CM there was only one way!!)

[ReluctantClerk]

However, if pers were willing to take on the best job in career management terms, regardless of location, there would be scope to properly CM everyone.


I'm a little lost with this one:PDT_Xtremez_08: Is this the best job in career management terms for the career manager - i.e. filling an unpopular post - or for the individual. Not the latter I suspect.

I await an interesting response.:PDT_Xtremez_28:

[True Blue Jack]

I'm a little lost with this one:PDT_Xtremez_08: Is this the best job in career management terms for the career manager - i.e. filling an unpopular post - or for the individual. Not the latter I suspect.

I await an interesting response.:PDT_Xtremez_28:

It would be a little of both, wouldn't it? I have almost always achieved my area of choice, but I have also spent the vast majority of my career in PSF. My depth of experience in that area is matched by some, surpassed by few. But on my current tour I have learned that I know very little about many other aspects of the trade, e.g., classified registry. I have never done a proper accounts job (4 months in Saudi doesn't really count), and there are loads of other things (GD, Int, Works Services, etc.,) of which I have very limited experience. If my career had been managed from the time I had left training then I would have filled in at least some of those gaps which would have made me a more-rounded administrator and benefitted The Mob too.

[ReluctantClerk]

Thanks for a reply. Do you feel that you have been disadvantaged by your almost PSF only career. I like Borderlyne have only done 18 months in a PSF and with a choice would not go back - JPA or not. It's not that I couldn't do the job I really just didn't enjoy it.

[True Blue Jack]

Thanks for a reply. Do you feel that you have been disadvantaged by your almost PSF only career.

Yes, I probably do feel disadvantaged because as time has gone on I have become used to being treated as an expert in my field - after all, each PSF may have its differences, but not massively so. When I got posted to my Sqn last year I was very much a fish out of water for several weeks and I fully expect my assessments to take a dip this year, which could be disastrous at this stage of my career.

[Still-a-statty]

I've been in 18+ years and I've never worked in a PSF, I was a Stattie and to be honest, I've stayed one, having been exclusively employed in Q-SEC-STATS posts since 97. I'm on a formed unit and I always get my 90+ days in, so I've never done a 4 mth det as a proper clerk either. I know I've peaked at Cpl and no matter what my F6000's look like I will never get promoted. I'm happy and my bosses are happy, is there any point in moving me in order to develop my career?:PDT_Xtremez_17:

[ReluctantClerk]

In response to TBJ = I know exactly where you're coming from - but like me your previous experience will be an asset to those you work with now.

I went to a non-job as a senior in my rank fully expecting promotion after my previous tour of always putting the service first and secondary duties (don't get me wrong, I enjoyed them and did them because I wanted to, not because I should, the same with sport) and then found I'd actually gone down on the board with my 5th SR.

The only upside for me is in my current job is just because I think it's at a far slower tempo than I'm used to, those I work with tell me I am doing a great job while I don't feel I'm actually doing much at all.

There be no breath holding for me though anymore, I am the stage where I worked like a dog, had no life and for what? Nothing. If it happens it happens if it doesn't I'll consider what to do next after 22. I still like the RAF and don't want to leave but I also don't want to leave as a 47 yr old Sgt!

[Boarderlyne]

Thanks for a reply. Do you feel that you have been disadvantaged by your almost PSF only career. I like Borderlyne have only done 18 months in a PSF and with a choice would not go back - JPA or not. It's not that I couldn't do the job I really just didn't enjoy it.

Agree with you partially on that point RC. I enjoyed certain parts of PSF. The joy of sorting out a completely fecked up salary is a joy to behold or even to throw out a one-liner and be rewarded with an invite to a leaving drinks where you buy only one drink and still end up ****ed the next morning can't be described. But the pain of continually doing checksheets was boredom beyond belief.

I honestly think that, as a trade, we need to make sure that everyone has as diverse a career experience as possible. A tour on Allowances, PSF (sorry HR), Man Servs (as was!), Appraisals, P1, Discipline, Welfare, PR, Career Management, Registry (I am up to 8 now. Will someone please stop taking the pi$$?), Basic Training, Command School, IOT, AFCO and Service Funds ( I am sure that I have missed a few). This will not make us experts in all fields but will give us the skills to be well-rounded air people ( in skills not shape! :PDT_Xtremez_14: ) and help out the rest of the troops.

Now aware that this post can be considered Off Topic but I think that the more diverse an experience that we have, then the better we can make our input into the pot that is the RAF (Excuse me while I wince as that last sentence sounded like too much management-speak). In terms of CM, this would make a TG17 drafters life a nightmare, as he would have to make sure that the bod that he was posting was not only going to an area of choice, but was also going to a job that would enhance their career and their usefulness to the Service.

I am only a humble two banana, so that I know that my views will count for little when we play rank-poker but I hope that FLWO is watching this thread and cherry-picking all the good ideas. :PDT_Xtremez_28:

[Humble Scribe]

I'm a little lost with this one:PDT_Xtremez_08: Is this the best job in career management terms for the career manager - i.e. filling an unpopular post - or for the individual. Not the latter I suspect.

I await an interesting response.:PDT_Xtremez_28:

If you want your career managed, similar to the Admin (Sec) Branch, you're going to have to take the rough with the smooth. If you wish to diversify in the trade, you're going to have to go where the trade vacancy exists, rather than a location vacancy. Chf Clks could also play a part in enabling their clerks to diversify early in their careers, but only if they all come under his establishment rather than Wg/Sqn establishments.

I know the Sec Sponsor spoke about this at the APC last month and it is his vision that new clerks would spend a maximum of 18 months in post before being moved to a new post whether it be on the same Stn or another. I fully agree with the sentiment of this proposal but wonder whether many bosses would be willing to lose their experience relatively early.

A Flt Lt is normally required to fill an Accts role, an AFCO, PSF, Works, Media etc etc before being considered for Sqn Ldr; if TG17 was to go down a similar route, we would all have to accept being posted to non areas of choice when a suitable career vacancy arose. Then the CM's certainly would earn their money!

[ReluctantClerk]

HS on principal I agree with what you are saying, however as an ex statty I was career managed in to stats/adp posts for another 6 years after we allegedly assimilated until I requested a 'main stream 'pers admin job - if such a thing exists.

[Boarderlyne]

If you want you career managed, similar to the Admin (Sec) Branch, you're going to have to take the rough with the smooth. If you wish to diversify in the trade, you're going to have to go where the trade vacancy exists, rather than a location vacancy. Chf Clks could also play a part in enabling their clerks to diversify early in their careers, but only if they all come under his establishment rather than Wg/Sqn establishments.

Plus the added burden to T&S budgets if they go to different stations.

I know the Sec Sponsor spoke about this at the APC last month and it is his vision that new clerks would spend a maximum of 18 months in post before being moved to a new post whether it be on the same Stn or another. I fully agree with the sentiment of this proposal but wonder whether many bosses would be willing to lose their experience relatively early.

This is the Army route to Personnel Admin

A Flt Lt is normally required to fill an Accts role, an AFCO, PSF, Works, Media etc etc before being considered for Sqn Ldr; if TG17 was to go down a similar route, we would all have to accept being posted to non areas of choice when a suitable career vacancy arose. Then the CM's certainly would earn their money!

Why not? We all signed on to get away from home/dead-end jobs, so how can we bitch when we are posted to an non area of choice if and only if it enhances our chances of promotion?

[tommo9999]

In my opinion true CM could be achieved - but all pers would have to realise that it would involve employment area first, and location a very poor second. Furthermore, Chf Clk's are expected to act as the ACOS Manning agents in the field and have a responsibility to ensure their pers receive a good grounding in as many aspects of the trade as they can.

I'm not convinced that a majority of pers would want to give up on a location based system, for a system that was solely centred around developing the individual in career terms. But I could be wrong.

[ReluctantClerk]

In my opinion true CM could be achieved - but all pers would have to realise that it would involve employment area first, and location a very poor second. Furthermore, Chf Clk's are expected to act as the ACOS Manning agents in the field and have a responsibility to ensure their pers receive a good grounding in as many aspects of the trade as they can.

I'm not convinced that a majority of pers would want to give up on a location based system, for a system that was solely centred around developing the individual in career terms. But I could be wrong.

I think you are correct on your second point, I think people are driven more by where they, and their families, want to be generally than employment type - some are lucky to get that, some aren't.

I think the down side is the CMs can't possibly know the career 'value' of all the different jobs we are posted into, did you? I mean this in all seriousness
and am not trying to start a small scuffle (war seemed too OTT) of words, but how could you know what every job you drafted into involved? I'm sure you would have a brief outline on the desk. I mean how do you 'sell' a job like being the OM in a registry especially as a career move???

[tommo9999]

I think the down side is the CMs can't possibly know the career 'value' of all the different jobs we are posted into, did you? I mean this in all seriousness and am not trying to start a small scuffle (war seemed too OTT) of words, but how could you know what every job you drafted into involved? I'm sure you would have a brief outline on the desk. I mean how do you 'sell' a job like being the OM in a registry especially as a career move???

There is a range of tools open to the CM/Drafter. OM in a registry might not suit everyone, but it would suit someone. And there is always the PSL of course. It could be that jobs were graded for 1st tourists, 2nd tourists and so on. If we really wanted to, we could find a way of making it happen, but as you correctly say, more people are interested in location than job.

[Man in Black]

[QUOTE=True Blue Jack;111904]For a long time I harboured ambitions of being an instructor at SecTS, but experience taught me that I much prefer bringing new LACs up to Operational Performance Standard. I'm not belittling the work of SecTS but it's what happens in the months after PABC that shapes the whole career of a Pers Admin.

Firstly, I totally agree with you TBJ. After 9 years of PSF I volunteered to Instruct at SecTS. I has been the most enjoyable job I have had in the RAF and the only job I never wanted to leave. The students are told throughout their course that we are giving them a bse level knowledge and there real training starts when they reach their first Unit. Some Units are very quick to complain about the standard of LACs they receive. We only ever gave them a 70% coverage of trade work in an assimulated environment. Until they do it for real, they don't truly understand the consequences of their mistakes.

Secondly, perhaps we should go back to the old days where you went where you were told to go. That way you can have your career managed effectivley. I personnaly feel there is too much discussion about what jobs are open to you. To fill a gap, pick a person and send them. After all, isn't that why we joined in the first place?

[Humble Scribe]

[QUOTE=Man in Black;Secondly, perhaps we should go back to the old days where you went where you were told to go. That way you can have your career managed effectivley. I personnaly feel there is too much discussion about what jobs are open to you. To fill a gap, pick a person and send them. After all, isn't that why we joined in the first place?[/QUOTE]

Completely agree with these sentiments Ref! The airmen/women of today are far too mollycoddled and a bit of good old fashion drafting would sort the men out from the boys (without wishing to appear sexist)!

[True Blue Jack]

Completely agree with these sentiments Ref! The airmen/women of today are far too mollycoddled and a bit of good old fashion drafting would sort the men out from the boys (without wishing to appear sexist)!

On a personal level I would be happy with that, but I also recognise that we live in a different RAF from the one most of us joined. How many kids have turned down 3 years in Cyprus because they would be too far from Mum & Dad. Hell, I even know of one guy who got his area of choice (overborne, there were no established vacancies) because he told the Chf Clk his wife would leave him if he got posted elsewhere.

We have enough problems with retention already without giving people another reason to leave.

I see no reason for it not be possible to provide effective career management while keeping people within their area of choice for the majority of that career, so long as that area is not too restrictive. In return, when it is necessary to move someone away from their AOC, e.g., to gain experience in an employment area not available in Scotland or Lincolnshire, it should be with the expectation of a return to their AOC after 3 - 4 years.

[vinnyvx]

No trolling going on here, I've just been too busy to look at the forum.

Going back to my original post. The issue I have with the title career manager is that it creates a perception that we manage careers, lets be honest, CM/drafters don't manage careers, so lets not pretend. Its's a gucci title to look good on a CV, which incidently won't stand up to scrutiny at an interview for a HR job in civvie st. Drafter fits the bill nicely as does manning resource manager etc etc.

The main issue I have is the nepotism in Manning/PMA. It exists, enough drafters/ex drafters have told me so. It exists in the organisation from the top to the bottom. I remember a story about a 2* whose steward didn't get picked up for promotion. The 2* had the board set aside, a new board was held and the 2*s Steward came top of the board. There are plenty more, lets here them... How do we address it and sort the trade out, civilianise PMA.

As for the arguement that there are civilian recruitment difficulties at High Wycombe, its simply not true, Cmd Sec and the Civvie HR business partners will tell you that they have a waiting list of people waiting for civvie jobs here at High Wycombe. My next door neighbour is on it!

As for the arguement that drafting is too difficult/complex to let a civvie or person without recent PSF experience draft, again the arguement doesn't stand up to scrutiny, if this is the case why do the Army and senior RAF officers successfully have civvie drafters/desk officers? If they can do why can't a TG17 WO, FS, Sgt or Cpl or any other trade for that matter go into drafting. You just make sure you train them.

The only way to address the nepotism is to civilianise Manning top to bottom, there wouldn't be any vested interests anymore. As I've said repeatedly if it works for the army and senior RAF officers, why can't it work for the RAF as a whole? It doesn't matter if you like it, we need to fix the trade. We need to spend the money we save on not having RAF drafters on establishing more SACs in PSFs to sort out JPA, etc etc.

I don't have anything against drafters, I applied to be one, it isn't personal, I don't have an axe to grind. Why aren't I applying to be one now they need some on the move to High Wycombe? I decided to leave sometime ago, I may be on the PSL, but my future is elsewhere. I'm cerainly not tied to High Wycombe, I've had 11 posts across the length and breadth of the UK and not complained once.

[Man in Black]

I see no reason for it not be possible to provide effective career management while keeping people within their area of choice for the majority of that career, so long as that area is not too restrictive. In return, when it is necessary to move someone away from their AOC, e.g., to gain experience in an employment area not available in Scotland or Lincolnshire, it should be with the expectation of a return to their AOC after 3 - 4 years.

That sounds like working in Civvy street to me. Find a job, try something else then go back to original job. It may be a different RAF from the one most of us joined, but that shouldn't mean the employment fundamentals should change. If a job needs doing, somebody gets sent to do it. Soon people will try getting out of going OOA because they don't fancy the area!

[True Blue Jack]

That sounds like working in Civvy street to me. Find a job, try something else then go back to original job. It may be a different RAF from the one most of us joined, but that shouldn't mean the employment fundamentals should change. If a job needs doing, somebody gets sent to do it. Soon people will try getting out of going OOA because they don't fancy the area!

You mean that doesn't happen already? I volunteered for the Gulf because I didn't want to go to the Falklands. My point, poorly made, was that if people declare their area of choice to be Lincolnshire, for example, we can achieve a great range of trade duties while staying within our AOC.

Looking at Pers Admin in particular we can cover many aspects of the trade without leaving the county, or even the Station. If it were beneficial to the Service and the individual's career prospects to move to HW for a tour then it should be contracted that the individual would be given the opportunity to return to their AOC afterwards. It sounds like a Win-Win scenario to me.

We have so far failed to mention the one thing that will prevent this happening, particularly for our technical brethren . . . . . . training costs. Let's face it, once a techie is fully Q'd up on Hercs the chances of him ever leaving Wiltshire are very slim.

[tommo9999]

I think there have been a number fo constructive comments here. However, I still believe it is the drafting system that must change. Moving from Service to civilian drafters, but retaining the current system of post allocation, would not achieve that much IMHO. That said, the days of TG17 are numbered and eventually I do think drafting will be civilianised. But I emphasise, civilians just would not entertain working the hours that some drafters are having to put in currently.

[shiny_arse]

We have so far failed to mention the one thing that will prevent this happening, particularly for our technical brethren . . . . . . training costs. Let's face it, once a techie is fully Q'd up on Hercs the chances of him ever leaving Wiltshire are very slim. - VERY TRUE

Moving you on a little further than this. Why not have personnel for the main tied down to one camp and then detach them around the air force as required to pick up shortfalls. The way that the RAF has been decimated recently, it would make life a hell of a lot easier. Personnel can look to buy private accommodation, wifes/husbands of can concentrate on their own careers, kids are settled into area/education. People may still fancy a move around the country and this may be slightly easier to manage. Prime example of this is AIDU down at Northolt. Finish training, arrive Northolt, discharge Northolt.

The way I see things is give it a few more years and the RAF will consist of about a dozen supercamps with all the smaller units falling to the wayside or being almalgamated in order to save more money.

[Man in Black]

[QUOTE=True Blue Jack;112348]You mean that doesn't happen already? I volunteered for the Gulf because I didn't want to go to the Falklands. My point, poorly made, was that if people declare their area of choice to be Lincolnshire, for example, we can achieve a great range of trade duties while staying within our AOC. [QUOTE]

My comment was actually a bit tongue in cheek. I was aiming it at those who don't want to go OOA and visit the Med Centre instead (with no real ailments before I get lynched!).

Bugger, I've messed the quote up again!

[Humble Scribe]

[QUOTE]No trolling going on here, I've just been too busy to look at the forum.

I apologise. You did provoke some good reaction then weren't around to back up your statement. You obviously haven't had the luxury of a few days off like me!

As for the arguement that drafting is too difficult/complex to let a civvie or person without recent PSF experience draft, again the arguement doesn't stand up to scrutiny, if this is the case why do the Army and senior RAF officers successfully have civvie drafters/desk officers? If they can do why can't a TG17 WO, FS, Sgt or Cpl or any other trade for that matter go into drafting. You just make sure you train them.

Surely Senior RAF Officers are appointed by the AF Board members and whilst there may be a civvy (ex-RAF) shuffling the paper around, does he really have much say in who goes where?

Whilst I agree that there is a case for same trade drafters, the manning constraints in most TG's at the moment won't allow personnel to be taken off trade to do drafting. Further, do you really think that will reduce the nepotism you complain about or increase it in individual trades?

The only way to address the nepotism is to civilianise Manning top to bottom, there wouldn't be any vested interests anymore. As I've said repeatedly if it works for the army and senior RAF officers, why can't it work for the RAF as a whole? It doesn't matter if you like it, we need to fix the trade. We need to spend the money we save on not having RAF drafters on establishing more SACs in PSFs to sort out JPA, etc etc.

Are your proposals fixing the trade or the begining of the end for the trade? We actually need to re-invent the trade before it's too late not shoot ourselves in the foot by getting rid of our most high profile positions. Whilst I can see some civilinisation just around the corner, I believe the air force needs TG17 personnel in Career Management positions.

[vinnyvx]

There's a Civvie drafting Gp Capts and possibly Air Cdres, I'm not sure of the mechanics of it all, however she does draft them.

As for using a tradesman to draft personnel within their trade. I note Desk Officers on the whole draft personnel within their own branch, so it can work. However, it raises the nepotism issue again. I won't get into Gnrs drafting Gnrs! Best off civilianising the whole place.

I think we have to live up to the fact we have more Sgts than Cpls and more Cpls than SACs. We need to make some fundamental changes to the TG17 structure to address the issue. There will be no more cuts in PSF as they are struggling already with the shambles that is JPA. Chopping a few Stn Cdrs PAs will help, but we don't have that many stations left, thus not many Sgt PA posts to chop. The embassy review may help, but again the numbers aren't large. The biggest pot of TG17 manpower in one place is in Manning. Its got to take its fair share of the pain.

Going off topic, Is it true drafters are exempt OOA commitments at the moment? If it's true, it'll generate a few volunteers for drafting! Before anyone says anything I've done 3 OOA tours, all of which I volunteered for.

Going even further off topic, I note on a few peoples P60s, the total salary received box for FY 06/07 doesn't tie up with what the AFPRB said they should have been paid. In my case I'm £60 down. I know of 1 Sqn ldr who is down £2000, check your P60s! JPAC haven't answered my I-support request with their normal retort of " Thank you for your query, please address your query to your Unit HR Staff"

[tommo9999]

The biggest pot of TG17 manpower in one place is in Manning. Its got to take its fair share of the pain.

Does that include the recent 40% cut in drafters or not?

[True Blue Jack]

There's a Civvie drafting Gp Capts and possibly Air Cdres, I'm not sure of the mechanics of it all, however she does draft them.

That's true - she has been doing the job for a long time, is a senior civil servant and works hand-in-glove with a retired Air Cdre. As previously stated the AFB decides who goes where at that level, not the desk officer.

As for using a tradesman to draft personnel within their trade. I note Desk Officers on the whole draft personnel within their own branch, so it can work. However, it raises the nepotism issue again. I won't get into Gnrs drafting Gnrs! Best off civilianising the whole place.

There is an argument to get some first-hand trade experience into the drafting cycle, but you would then get into the argument of Tonka-qualified guys drafting/advising for Nimrod units. As for civvies - would you like your career to be managed by someone who has never worn the uniform?

I think we have to live up to the fact we have more Sgts than Cpls

True. For many reasons, not just ACOS Manning and Embassies. Look around any MOB and you will find a fair number of SNCO Pers Admin with no uniformed subordinates. Multiply that for Cmd, MOD and NATO units.

and more Cpls than SACs.

Forgetting that we are undermanned at SAC level presently the establishment requires more SACs than Cpls or Sgts. Personally I disagree with the proposed pyramid. JPA has removed many of the 'personnel administration' tasks that fell to TG17, but the emphasis on 'personnel management' is greater than ever. Frankly, vinny, I find your arguments ill-conceived and ill-prepared.

Going even further off topic, I note on a few peoples P60s, the total salary received box for FY 06/07 doesn't tie up with what the AFPRB said they should have been paid. In my case I'm £60 down. I know of 1 Sqn ldr who is down £2000, check your P60s! JPAC haven't answered my I-support request with their normal retort of " Thank you for your query, please address your query to your Unit HR Staff"

Off Topic I assume you checked all the possible reasons - grade step change, legacy overissue, being a biff and reading the salary scales incorrectly, etc., - before you dived straight in with a Service Request. It's all very well slagging off JPAC but if you pay them a visit they will show you how many people start off a SR with the words "I am Unit HR" and then go on to ask a question which proves they are not worthy of the name.

I have the opposite problem because the new-style P60 lumps basic pay together with LSA (and possibly HDT, I need to check), which is going to make my Child Tax Credit claim kind of interesting.

[Boarderlyne]

...Off Topic I assume you checked all the possible reasons - grade step change, legacy overissue, being a biff and reading the salary scales incorrectly, etc., - before you dived straight in with a Service Request. It's all very well slagging off JPAC but if you pay them a visit they will show you how many people start off a SR with the words "I am Unit HR" and then go on to ask a question which proves they are not worthy of the name.

I have the opposite problem because the new-style P60 lumps basic pay together with LSA (and possibly HDT, I need to check), which is going to make my Child Tax Credit claim kind of interesting.

Thankfully LOA does not get put on the P60 otherwise I would be truly stuffed! I always call CTC with to confirm my wage for the last year and advise them of next FY's gross pay. End of Off Topic

Back to the thread, Officers get a different type of training and are expected to be switched-on cookies :PDT_Xtremez_03: which is why they can put Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs behind a desk for a couple of years to control the whole branch. As to ground trade drafting, how many ground trades want to be pulled away from their core tasking to shuffle paper? Rocks are a good example. So are Liney Snecks. How much bitching do you hear about how promotion takes the guys away from the grease and grime and sticks them behind a desk?

We are paper shufflers by choice and therefore make the natural choice for drafters. While the addition of specialist trade knowledge to ACOS Manning would be brilliant, why do we then continue to carry out multi-skilling so that the right guy can fix a Tonka or a Fat Albert? Or advise Stns/Wgs/Sqns to make sure that all appropriate Q annotations are on the LUE?

While I agree that some of the tasking could be transferred to the civil service, how many on E1 wages are going to take the sh**e that a drafter normally takes or the manic task-load? High Wycombe are going to have to find 50 plus E1's for when Manning arrives and when you consider the average wage around that area, most people are going to turn their noses up at a E1 job when you could probably get a better whack shelf stacking at Sainsburys and a whole lot less stress! So saying that a mate's wife is on the waiting list is no real indicator of how easy it is to fill an E1 slot. I have friends at High Wycombe and very few of them would even consider the Civil Service as a valid choice of a job while in that area.

Plus, most have to join the Civil Service at E2 level and prove themselves capable before gaining promotion. Allowing them to join the Civil Service as E1's would be the equivalent of a LAC coming out of RAF SA and being told that they are now in charge of 4 PD points!

I agree with Tommo that is the system that needs to be reviewed, albeit this is on blind faith as he had the most recent experience of the system and he knows the Secret books that govern drafting! :PDT_Xtremez_28: My experience is a prime example, 8 Registry associated jobs in 12 years is a bit much, so a variation on a theme would be welcome, but that said, I have been to some interesting areas that I would never have gone to while in Civvy Street. Christmas Days in Limassol/Byron Heights/Driving the length of Bosnia/On SGF at Uxbridge/on the lash in Carterton are experiences I would never have had if I had not joined up. :PDT_Xtremez_15:

[tommo9999]

This thread has now moved onto a new subject so I have moved those posts to it. It's called Future of TG17.

Thread Closed.