British - A National Identity.

[Cat of Shadows]

OK fellow e-goaters, here is my starter for 10.

For those that as yet haven't read the posts on 'The Army's deadliest enemy is at home', I suggest for background you start there as you will appreciate why a new thread has been started.

The aforementioned debate, which has now reached national level, on what it truly means to be British, or the 'definition of Britishness' has been on-going for years, but it has really gathered pace over the last decade as the effects of the current Govts' PC policy has infiltrated every aspect of our every day life. Strangely many ill-informed or easily led individuals see this 'debate' as a campaign based on hatred, racism, sectarianism and a general intolerance of other peoples culture and religion......................fortunately this could not be further from the truth.

The discussion on British identity has involved some of the most senior intellectuals in the country from professional fields such as politics, theology, education, law and finance. And to a man/woman the following appears to be the general feeling of what Britishness means:

"Britishness is a belief in tolerance and liberty, a sense of propriety and civic duty, a sense of fair play and a sense of being open to the world."

Neal Ascherson
Prospect Issue 109 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/pdffiles/6832.pdf
Dated Apr 2004

As I said, only a starter for 10.

As an aside, the same document makes it very clear that from a multi-ethnic perspective, the UK has always been one of the only true multi-ethnic societies within Europe. Our history as a nation is littered with the problems of unifying the island under one banner, with ethnic tolerance, (eventually), being cemented between the Scots, Welsh, Irish and English to create Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or more importantly.......the United Kingdom.

Ironically, most of the immigrants to the UK since the end of WWII claim that they came to Britain and not another country in Europe because to be British, brought tolerance.

Sadly, whilst our apparent collective identity is on the decline, as is the essence of Englishness, the recent devolution of national parliament has re-awakened national sentiment in the other members of our Union.

So where are we going wrong?
I open this to the forum.

[tourettes]

Purley by location of birth I'm Scottish, but when asked my nationality I unerringly reply "British". The people who claim to be solely Welsh, Irish, Sottish or English are denying part of their heritage.

On the point of devolution of goverment, IMHO it is the worst idea to take place in many years and will only serve to further fracture the collective identity of this country.

Just remember it's the "United Kingdom"!

[A CLING NERD SHRON]

Now then,

I do believe that Gordon Brown is quite correct in saying that we should celebrate being British by having a "British Day", in much the same way as the Americans do on July 4th. We should be able to fly the Union Jack outside our homes without having to apply for planning permission from some Council official.

We do need to encourage our children and population to be proud of the UK and not to worry that we may upset a few people along the way. Afterall those who choose to live here should adopt our ways and customs. Not the other way round.

On immigration. Our borders should be more closely policed to stop more illeagal immigrants from entering especially as the Government have no idea how many illeagal immigrants are here. Perhaps we could get customs to do the job that they used to with more resources. This would be following what the Australians do. I am happy that many European workers are coming to our shores as they do the jobs many of our sponging lazy youth wont do.

However what I do disagree with, and this is what started all this off is people making stupid remarks even in jest.

To describe Luton, Bedford and High Wycombe as Luton Arabia ,Bedfordistan and a suberb of Beruit just plays into the hands of the Right Wing extremists and could stir up racial tension. COS why dont you ring the CRE (Commission for Racial equality)

http://www.cre.gov.uk/

and ask them if your remarks are OK. Or better still ring your local Chief Constable and ask him if its ok to say such things. The other thing to do is to look on this website and see what happened to an individual who said the same thing. He was fired and branded a racist after such remarks.

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:Lk-MVwnZdREJ:www.biyouth.com/forums/disp_post.cfm/cc.36825/o_r.41/clt.30/page.html+bedfordistan&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=6

Found after a simple search.

So now you can see my point, I hope, that such remarks are not acceptable in Britain today as you well know. Simple thing to do is not to say them.

On the issue of PC I am in complete agreement that we have gone too far.

[Twonston Pickle]

I have to agree with the majority of comments on here that our national identity is in a bit of turmoil.

Devolution is certainly a guilty party and is actually a toothless old bear, particularly when you look at the powers the Welsh Assembly has compared to the money it costs. Looks good for the feverent nationalists but actually does little for the majority of British-oriented individuals.

Immigration is a sore point for many. I do not want to abitrarily restrict numbers but I do wish to see tighter controls. I am a firm believer in the detention centre system and even of making immigrants apply through the British Consulate in their current country of residence.

PC is almost the final nail in the coffin of our identity but not quite. It takes common sense to breaking point and distorts sensible proposals and laws beyond all recognition. Some perspective can be found by these individuals if they had actually visited the countries and cultures they seem intent on not offending.

The final nail for me is politicians (of all parties); the very fact the Brown had to talk about restoring national pride and identity speaks volumes about the current leadership rather than the population at large. As much as I hate to hijack this thread a little, Blair must take some responsibilty for the lack of respect, balance, law & order, immigration problems and lack of identity. Inspiration, example and leadership come from the top.

Rant off

[Cat of Shadows]

As much as I hate to hijack this thread a little, Blair must take some responsibilty for the lack of respect, balance, law & order, immigration problems and lack of identity. Inspiration, example and leadership come from the top.

Rant off

Twonston,

You're not hijacking the thread fella, this is exactly the healthy debate I wanted to prompt. I think there is a very large proportion of people who are sick and tired of the watered down version of Britishness that is currently being supported by the Blairite Govt.

We have no widespread national pride any more, as the general public have been battered in to submission by the fear of a). persecution for applying their individual right to free speech and expression and b). of litany being brought by those less tolerant and easily offended. There are pockets of UK society where national fervour remains strong and unfortunately these individuals are sometimes unfairly allied to less helpful organisations such as the BNP.

There was once a time when it really meant something to have 'great' in Great Britain, (even as close as the late '80s under Maggie), so I think its the duty of all of us to help re-instill this sense of belonging within our younger generation.

[Almost_done]

Not only do the Government have to look up and see the state of the Nation that that their actions have caused, but also add the Nation press to this, especially the PC, Human rights lobby. Not that I am saying these are not needed but as with everyting in moderation.

We in this country have a history that is very unique in Europe, we are an amalgimation of the Picts, Celts, Gauls, Romani, Saxons and Noric races with some French thrown in later on. Since 1066 we have held this Island fortress from the mainland of Europe with pride and passion (perhaps the qualities that made us join up). We have a fierce history, the plunders of the Spanish Main, the Great Land Generals Clive, Wolfe and Wellington to name a couple. We have shaped continents, lost continents, upheld freedom in face of great adversity and stood against the tide of Facisim and Communisim in Europe.

We have this great history, we should be proud of it.

But what are we being driven to do, aplogise for it!! the teaching of British History in Schools is being withdrawn, phased out. It's too old fashioned, 'we should not be studying the Second world war and the victory over Germany' apparently, we have to move with the times. We don't want to uspet the new allies? is the school of thought now.

I say no to this History defines us as Nation, a People. It is good that people wish to come here and enhance our culture, be it for personal gain or escape from persicution. I want them to feel the same sense of pride I have in my Nation.

I do not want to be reading in the Times Education Suppliment 'Full Time Teacher required for an Inner City School English as a SECOND language'. We are surrendering our way of life, bit by bit. Soon the vocal minority will have the sway over the country, or has it already? If we stand up and say we want better immigration controls we are described as being rascist. We can on longer use many terms in our wonderfully rich language as it may cause offense.

If someone wishes to enter our country we should have the same laws and procedures as the US and Australia and New Zealand to become citizens and thus allowing them access to all the benifits that holding that status grants.

Yes they have their problems too, but they are fairer on the already settled population. You cannot get in under normal circumstances unless you prove yourself to be of value to the country, people who are seeking haven are grated it too however they are detained first to assess the factuality of their claims, not left to dissolve into the ghettos that are forming in the Inner Cities. we are developing these now look at Bedford, Bradford and Glasgow. there are whole areas where the white face is the minority and the population is immigrant.

If this continues there will be less of an integration between our cultures less understanding between our ways and we will have the rivers of blood that were foretold in the 50's.

Now I am sure that there are people who will think I am a racist but I am not. I look at history and I apply it to the present, it has many parallels for us to learn from. The more we close our minds the worse off we become, the more insular. We are an Island but have influenced the whole world, through politics, science, discovery and industrialisation. We have been the industrial model of inspiration for most of the countries of the world.

We do have a duty to protect our heritage. In this heritage we have our morals, or way of life, stop teaching them and valueing them and chaos will ensue.


Oh well gone on far too long here...........

Rant off

[Cat of Shadows]

A truly inspiring rant Almost Done.

You're right. It really does reflect the very sad state we are in when such an expression as yours, mine and that of others I have spoken to recently is considered racist and divisive within our society.

All I will say in response is that such a notion is, in itself, a racist sentiment against our collective right to be concerned about the watering down of our national identity.

Well spoken fella, well argued and utterly valid. :PDT_Xtremez_30:

[DrillInstructor]

Nail hit square on head there Almost Done. Fan-bloody-tastic addition to the debate.

Your points on history are most valid. A refusal to teach modern history for fear of upsetting those that are now allied brings to mind the 'Eastasia/Eurasia' history rewriting in Orwell's 1984.

This debate is subject matter very close to my heart, but I fear that I would not do my views justice here as there's no way I could write elloquently or succinctly as above to put my thoughts on the argument forward. Perhaps I'll have a think and try to compose something later on without rambling on for pages and pages.

For now I shall leave a light hearted 'view' of what it is to be British that I found elsewhere on the web just recently ...

"Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, and then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV.

And the most British thing of all? Suspicion of anything foreign."

Now I dont fully agree with the final point, but the first paragraph makes you think (and made me smile). Apparantly the author was a Swiss chap who wrote it in response to a debate similar to this in a national (British) newspaper.

[Cat of Shadows]

For now I shall leave a light hearted 'view' of what it is to be British that I found elsewhere on the web just recently ... Apparantly the author was a Swiss chap who wrote it in response to a debate similar to this in a national (British) newspaper.

Have you got a link for this one DI?

[DrillInstructor]

Have you got a link for this one DI?

I haven't I'm afraid Cat, that quote was posted on another forum to which I subscribe. I shall endeavour to find out which paper it came from ...

[HilstonPols]

Thought provoking stuff ladies and gents, even better as I doubt there will be much arguementative comment.

I, like the majority of us come from mixed stock. My parental line is Southern Irish, a heritage of which I am extremely proud. Occassionally during my service my desire to support the boys in green during the 5 nations has prompted "discussion". However, despite my obvious allegenices and pride, when asked my nationality I always reply British.

To be British is something to be proud of, we are a nation that has led the world for generations. Where would the world be without Baird, Telford, Stephenson and Brunell to name but a few. It is my experience that if you wish to lead successfully, you lead by example.

This unfortuneatly is now proving to be our downfall. No longer does Britain stand as a paragon of virtue and a shining example of democratic freedom. The looney-lefty nanny state that we are now subjected too has weakened us from within. Children no longer have to push themselves to win in competition, like the Americans we now have an equal prize for all. The government has introduced so many illogical laws, the latest of which says that parents do not have the right to know when their underage girls fall pregnant and have an abortion?? How can we be expected to go to prison if they are truant (good skills imo) yet not be given any responsibility for such an important life changing situation.

Having criticised our government and our society I do have to say that I am still very proud to call myself British, I intend to teach my children their heritage and instil in them the same pride.

I am also not a racist but I find myself having to wonder whether Mr Enoch Powell was wrong when he predicted "rivers of blood". The measures introduced to integrate our many races, creeds and colours only causes division and unrest.

Do we need a British Day as Mr Brown suggests? No we have our saints days and we need to maintain the national pride that they generate. Rather than looking forward to seek how to make Britain better, look back and see what made it Great Britain in our long and illustrious past.

Forgive my ramblings, rantings and spelling. This is a subject that stirs more than passing interest for me.

[DrillInstructor]

Cat,

That quote was from the Expat Telegraph. Link below ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?view=FEEDBACKPAGE&grid=P8&targetRule=0&xml=/global/2005/07/28/uviewbritish2.xml

Regards,

DI

[Stax]

It's nice to see that most of us are able to post on here as Brits but not Racists! Good drills guys!