JPA - One Year On

[Warwick Hunt]

So...

How has it been for you?

[tommo9999]

A hugely positive move. There's lots to be impressed by, and although there have been a few teething problems, these were (in the main) because it was rushed to the RAF, and the training packages were cr@p. I'm a big fan.

[SORRY CJ]

So...

How has it been for you?


Well to be honest, it's been surprisingly ok. The only gripe I had was when we all had to change passwords all on the same day. Lol

Also they still have me at mt old place of work that I left in December. We shall see if JPA can run with all the 6000's, ha that should be fun.

SCJ

[Scaley brat]

So...

How has it been for you?

A source of endless amusement for me..... I'm a civvy :PDT_Xtremez_31:

[Humble Scribe]

A hugely positive move. There's lots to be impressed by, and although there have been a few teething problems, these were (in the main) because it was rushed to the RAF, and the training packages were cr@p. I'm a big fan.

You can tell that you're not a drafter, sorry career manager anymore, they all think it's cr@p!!!! (LOL). From a PSF point of view, it's getting better but there is plenty of room for further improvement; pay being the biggest headache for the front line shineys!!

I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm a fan but I'm certainly not anti-JPA; it'll take at least another couple of years before we see the real benefits but in the meantime we all have to suffer the pain! Hope it's worth it.

[Hu Jardon]

A hugely positive move. There's lots to be impressed by, and although there have been a few teething problems, these were (in the main) because it was rushed to the RAF, and the training packages were cr@p. I'm a big fan.
See I always knew the air ranks participated on e-goat - Welcome to e-goat AMP

:PDT_Xtremez_30:

[tommo9999]

I thought it was okay even when I was drafting, but there were certainly some legacy issues, and non-transfer of information between PACMIS and JPA. Drafting would have remained alright but they've made more manpower cuts, with more to come.

[tommo9999]

See I always knew the air ranks participated on e-goat - Welcome to e-goat AMP

:PDT_Xtremez_30:

Give me his cash then, and you can call me what you like!!!

[rodger-dodger]

Pleased overall, Claims paid quick, leave sorted quick, helpful JPAC, and:PDT_Xtremez_35:

FANTASTICALY PATIENT HR STAFF :PDT_Xtremez_30: (Three cheers, Hip, Hip Hooray)

I have gone a year with nearly no issues,

one mistake occured this month in that JPA moved me into SLA, charged me abated food charge and stopped my HTD, I assume because somwhere, someone updated my information without checking.

Seriously I mean everything i say, THIS IS NOT A P1SS TAKE.

[Humble Scribe]

I thought it was okay even when I was drafting, but there were certainly some legacy issues, and non-transfer of information between PACMIS and JPA. Drafting would have remained alright but they've made more manpower cuts, with more to come.

Off Topic Does that mean we won't be seeing you back in the Mafia in a couple of years!!

[roverboy]

I don't know, I can't get on it until the cannon fodder are online!!

Actually, the first time my pay was correct for nearly 6 months was with my first JPA pay packet.

[tommo9999]

Off Topic Does that mean we won't be seeing you back in the Mafia in a couple of years!!

I don't think so. H Wycombe has never seemed too attractive a place. If it was still at Innsworth, then I would consider it, but as with any place/job, things are never the same when you go back. However, if those in their Ivory Towers send me back, I won't have a lot of choice. I just hope I managed to p!ss enough of them off before I left to ensure that it will be a no-goer.

[Humble Scribe]

I don't think so. H Wycombe has never seemed too attractive a place. If it was still at Innsworth, then I would consider it, but as with any place/job, things are never the same when you go back. However, if those in their Ivory Towers send me back, I won't have a lot of choice. I just hope I managed to p!ss enough of them off before I left to ensure that it will be a no-goer.

Thank Christ for that (LOL)!!

[tommo9999]

Thank Christ for that (LOL)!!

Another happy customer there then!! That's 2 in 5 years, not bad I suppose.:PDT_Xtremez_30:

[True Blue Jack]

I thought it was okay even when I was drafting, but there were certainly some legacy issues, and non-transfer of information between PACMIS and JPA. Drafting would have remained alright but they've made more manpower cuts, with more to come.

Losing track of the DWR was some legacy issue.

I think I have now covered JPA from all angles; I was one half of my unit's change team a year ago, I am bog-standard Unit HR in my usual job, I was one of the Glasgow 9 and I have done an OOA.

It has many advantages, mainly from bringing so many legacy systems under one umbrella, but I think it will be a long time before it is completely bedded-in, much longer than the 2 years from initial roll-out that I gave it at first.

Looking at it from my day job, the guys on my sqn are away so frequently to different places that their pay and allowances are always playing catch-up - something that JPA should have eradicated. By the time they stop to take breath, we are sitting down with them going through 4 or more months worth of payslips trying to work out if it is correct. In fairness, it is correct more often than not. When it's wrong, however, we no longer have the oversight to work out why. We are still having to coach the guys in submitting iSupports because left to their own devices they come up with gems like "My pay is wrong, please fix it".

[True Blue Jack]

I just hope I managed to p!ss enough of them off before I left to ensure that it will be a no-goer.

Nice try. We all know you are the Godfather's favourite nephew. :PDT_Xtremez_30:

[tommo9999]

Nice try. We all know you are the Godfather's favourite nephew. :PDT_Xtremez_30:

Ah well, someone might believe me!!!

[Vim_Fuego]

JPA is a cunning way of reducing outgoings from many points of view...obviously we have cut down on PSF (old money!) staff but also I believe, due to it's poorly managed introduction, that confidence has dropped in it to a point that many people don't bother with the smaller claims et al due...My leave plot is ruined this year due to the system having no shift stand down facility...being told to shove it in as leave and memo the HR people to get it given back...cos that happened!!

I barely touch the thing these days...

[True Blue Jack]

JPA is a cunning way of reducing outgoings from many points of view...obviously we have cut down on PSF (old money!) staff but also I believe, due to it's poorly managed introduction, that confidence has dropped in it to a point that many people don't bother with the smaller claims et al due...My leave plot is ruined this year due to the system having no shift stand down facility...being told to shove it in as leave and memo the HR people to get it given back...cos that happened!!

I barely touch the thing these days...

JPA, at its inception, was all about improving the level of service provided by personnel administration. It quickly became a cost-cutting project and that is why it barely worked last year and is only improving slowly.

I disagree with your view on smaller claims. Over the years I have passed over loads of small claims (>5 hour rates and the like) because I couldn't be ar$ed to fill out 3 sides of a F1771. Now, I just pop into work 5 minutes early and it's job done.

Confidence in the system is very low, for the reasons you stated. It will take a long time to rebuild that confidence, and the EDS contract may expire before it's up where it should be. I, for one, am very interested to see what happens over the next few months as the Army get to grips with it. I had the pleasure(!) of watching the Welsh Guards go through their JPA pre-training over the last couple of months. Many of their clerks are not computer-literate enough to work it out, never mind the grunts. They even had the advantage of seeing the live system in action, and despite several offers none of them were interested.

[tommo9999]

I work in a Joint environment, and the pongoes here have been all over us to get some early insight on the system. Their clerks have spent time with us, and have shown a really pro-active approach. I'm positive it will go reasonably well out here, but as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it could be fairly difficult to get your "average" infantry soldier to use it properly.

[True Blue Jack]

It helps that you are in a (joint) headquarters environment and that RESG is headed up by someone like Clive Coombes. I imagine Northwood is similarly well prepared. In the single-service Army world, I'm afraid it is a different story.

[woollymouse]

JPA an interesting "little" beastie. With a year down the line it is finally begining to work at an acceptable level, but then didn't SAMA have it's own little teething problems all those years ago.

Personally yes it has created some work, some of which is on going, but mostly it is now starting to come into it's own, a few years down the line I'm sure we will be wondering what the fuss was all about.

Oh well best be packing my bags soon as I'm off to Worthy Down for a couple of days to assist the Army inital training units in their data migration.

[Mug?]

woolymouse Personally yes it has created some work, some of which is on going, but mostly it is now starting to come into it's own, a few years down the line I'm sure we will be wondering what the fuss was all about.
Maybe I will have had a correct payslip by then?

[KingGuin]

At my unit we have already hosted RN and RM units and shared our knowledge. next week we have a delegation from the Army and we will do the same with them. Interestingly while us and the RN have allowed all personnel to have user access to JPA, I am led to believe that the Army, or at least certain units, will insist on clerk only access with AGC personnel inputing on behalf of Jonny Bayonet boy.

[True Blue Jack]

At my unit we have already hosted RN and RM units and shared our knowledge. next week we have a delegation from the Army and we will do the same with them. Interestingly while us and the RN have allowed all personnel to have user access to JPA, I am led to believe that the Army, or at least certain units, will insist on clerk only access with AGC personnel inputing on behalf of Jonny Bayonet boy

That is certainly true of the Guards' regiments, but only initially. There was a platoon of Coldstream boys in my office just one month ago. Their troopy was talking about JPA and one of the boys piped up "What is JPA, Sir?". The answer came back, "JPA is the new way that the Army will be doing business." I have so many issues with that statement, but it was indicative of the attitude of the 600 pongoes on the unit. The only one truly interested was the AGC(SPS) Major and even she didn't take the time to look at the live system.

[KingGuin]

That is certainly true of the Guards' regiments, but only initially. There was a platoon of Coldstream boys in my office just one month ago. Their troopy was talking about JPA and one of the boys piped up "What is JPA, Sir?". The answer came back, "JPA is the new way that the Army will be doing business." I have so many issues with that statement, but it was indicative of the attitude of the 600 pongoes on the unit. The only one truly interested was the AGC(SPS) Major and even she didn't take the time to look at the live system.

Strangely enough the lowest rank on the proposed visit is WO2; I shall take great delight in seating my visitors with the SACs and watching my boys and girls lead them round the system. Might even learn somethng myself!

[I`m Ron Burgundy?]

I put leave in in September for a January. For some reason the notification never reached my snec and was 'floating around' until I was told to re-submit it. I did just that; it reached my snec and he approved it. Problem is the original leave application is STILL pending approval, and because of this I didnt have enough leave to cover the xmas grant because JPA included the pending leave in my ILA balance.

I tried my sqn admin, who said try the wg adj, who said put in an i-support...and the reply was (after the standard 10 days)...contact your HR staff! literally round in circles. Every time I ring the JPAC about anything its the same response - we dont deal with that, use your HR staff..

Its still on the system pending approval. And my pay has not once been correct since I was posted in last August. Bring back pay parades.

[SgtScribbly]

I put leave in in September for a January. For some reason the notification never reached my snec and was 'floating around' until I was told to re-submit it. I did just that; it reached my snec and he approved it. Problem is the original leave application is STILL pending approval, and because of this I didnt have enough leave to cover the xmas grant because JPA included the pending leave in my ILA balance.

I tried my sqn admin, who said try the wg adj, who said put in an i-support...and the reply was (after the standard 10 days)...contact your HR staff! literally round in circles. Every time I ring the JPAC about anything its the same response - we dont deal with that, use your HR staff..

Its still on the system pending approval. And my pay has not once been correct since I was posted in last August. Bring back pay parades.

you have strayed a little bit off topic here ron, we were trying to discuss the bigger picture of JPA, but no, "what about my pay, what about my leave", blah blah blah, heard it all before,


now if you had said, "well actually there are still many many errors on the system and ONE YEAR ON (see title of thread), I am astonished that there are still problems like these occuring, etc etc, that might have added to the debate

rant over :PDT_Xtremez_28:

[Downsizer]

you have strayed a little bit off topic here ron, we were trying to discuss the bigger picture of JPA, but no, "what about my pay, what about my leave", blah blah blah, heard it all before,


now if you had said, "well actually there are still many many errors on the system and ONE YEAR ON (see title of thread), I am astonished that there are still problems like these occuring, etc etc, that might have added to the debate

rant over :PDT_Xtremez_28:

Don't ya just love being patronised.

[Humble Scribe]

I put leave in in September for a January. For some reason the notification never reached my snec and was 'floating around' until I was told to re-submit it. I did just that; it reached my snec and he approved it. Problem is the original leave application is STILL pending approval, and because of this I didnt have enough leave to cover the xmas grant because JPA included the pending leave in my ILA balance.

I tried my sqn admin, who said try the wg adj, who said put in an i-support...and the reply was (after the standard 10 days)...contact your HR staff! literally round in circles. Every time I ring the JPAC about anything its the same response - we dont deal with that, use your HR staff..

Its still on the system pending approval. And my pay has not once been correct since I was posted in last August. Bring back pay parades.

Try ringing the JPAC (stay with me on this one!!) and select the IT option. You may get to speak to someone who knows what they're doing and in my experience, the IT people get things sorted a lot quicker than speaking to the normal pay problem desks. Worth a try!

[Boarderlyne]

Meanwhile, back on thread... JPA is still a new system and I remember everybody saying that SAMA would never be able to replace the Kardex or that SPA would ever replace the manual system and BACS (now that was truly a nightmare system! Spent days trying to get BACS runs to balance).

In the end, both came into their own and provided sterling support over the years. I think that JPA is still 'bedding down' and that the system won't truly be assessable until 2010 or even later. Problems at both ends have put frustration levels at an all-time high and should have been identified by their Airships a lot earlier than the 'going live' date. But as with every thing else we, the users, are at the low priority level and to ask for our input would have been heresy. After all, us non-commissioned types know nothing and do nothing in comparison to our 'leaders of men' (tongue firmly in cheek there!)

There are still a lot of niggles with JPA, but that is all that they are. On the whole, the system runs at about 85% accurate (rough guess-timate) and we, TG17, are doing our damnedest to get that system up to 97%. We will always have minor problems as no system will ever keep up with the way we move about.

[True Blue Jack]

Meanwhile, back on thread... JPA is still a new system and I remember everybody saying that SAMA would never be able to replace the Kardex or that SPA would ever replace the manual system and BACS (now that was truly a nightmare system! Spent days trying to get BACS runs to balance).

The difference between JPA and SAMA is that on its introduction, SAMA did a lot less. Essentially it kept leave records and did rations accounting, but developed into a great system because it was built to our specifications. SPA couldn't do BACS runs at first either, but it wasn't expected to. I used to spend hours writing out credit transfer vouchers (now there was a pain in the ar$e job).

What we have is an off-the shelf system with over 200 (yes, you heard me) bolt-on packages, mostly associated with Move & Track. Just wait until Oracle release a new version of the core program; they have already said they can't guarantee our bolt-ons will be compatible.

[KingGuin]

The difference between JPA and SAMA is that on its introduction, SAMA did a lot less. Essentially it kept leave records and did rations accounting, but developed into a great system because it was built to our specifications. SPA couldn't do BACS runs at first either, but it wasn't expected to. I used to spend hours writing out credit transfer vouchers (now there was a pain in the ar$e job).

What we have is an off-the shelf system with over 200 (yes, you heard me) bolt-on packages, mostly associated with Move & Track. Just wait until Oracle release a new version of the core program; they have already said they can't guarantee our bolt-ons will be compatible.

With the beast back up and running I have managed to get a hold of some management checks. OK it has taken a year to produce a definitive list, but I genuinely believe that with these in place not only will we be able to offer a better service but start to show just what JPA is capable of.

[I`m Ron Burgundy?]

you have strayed a little bit off topic here ron, we were trying to discuss the bigger picture of JPA, but no, "what about my pay, what about my leave", blah blah blah, heard it all before,


now if you had said, "well actually there are still many many errors on the system and ONE YEAR ON (see title of thread), I am astonished that there are still problems like these occuring, etc etc, that might have added to the debate

rant over :PDT_Xtremez_28:

Im sorry, how exactly is what I said off thread? The first post is "JPA, one year on, so how has it been for you?" my answer was as posted, my year according to JPA has not been good. But if you want to know, im not at all astonished that these problems are still occuring, in the least! Im sorry if that doesnt add to the debate, but im just a simple techie and was just answering a simple question in the first post.

BTW im not having a dig at any shinies here, the guys up here in the firth are pulling their hair out as it is with all of us having problems with JPA, and im well aware this is all out of their control and are working hard to resolve the problems

[I`m Ron Burgundy?]

Try ringing the JPAC (stay with me on this one!!) and select the IT option. You may get to speak to someone who knows what they're doing and in my experience, the IT people get things sorted a lot quicker than speaking to the normal pay problem desks. Worth a try!

Thanks, ill give that a go ta when the Army have given it back

[PSFbeatch]

forgive my ignorance...but why did we get JPA in the first place?? was it to save money? cos ahem... paying navy recruits just shy of a million isnt what i called a good initiative, SAMA was quick, workable, and it worked. If it aint broke dont blooming fix it. You cant beat DLVE and DMPS on speed can you?? Nope!

[Humble Scribe]

forgive my ignorance...but why did we get JPA in the first place?? was it to save money? cos ahem... paying navy recruits just shy of a million isnt what i called a good initiative, SAMA was quick, workable, and it worked. If it aint broke dont blooming fix it. You cant beat DLVE and DMPS on speed can you?? Nope!

I know what you are saying (and totally agree with you) however, there has been for a long time, the need for a tri-service administrative IT system that provided equality over all 3 services as we move towards a single 'purple' force and JPA is that beast.

Whilst SAMA worked for the RAF, it could not support the other 2 services and the same was true of their systems. The concept of self service administration is a very good one and as we aim to streamline the forces admin is obviously going to be targetted heavily. Whilst JPA might not be the finished article yet SAMA itself took a long time to evolve and trust me you didn't always have DLVE, DMPS etc. Stick with JPA, like some of the comments above, I believe that we won't see the best of it for many years to come and you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about!

[True Blue Jack]

The problem wasn't so much SAMA which in later years was Windows-based, but PSSL, the pay & personnel mainframe at PMA. Apart from anything else it was written in COBOL - a computer language that has rapidly been dying out. At the end of its life, PSSL was costing £10K per month to run just to keep it operating as a read-only system.

PSSL had to be replaced and it made perfect sense to replace it along with SAMA, UNICOM, PAS and scores of other legacy systems with the same package. My problem is that once it became obvious that there were no commercial off-the-shelf packages that suited our purposes the project should have re-focused on an all-singing all-dancing bespoke system. This is effectively what we now have, but the parts that we use are hidden among a jumble of unused fields.

[Boarderlyne]

forgive my ignorance...but why did we get JPA in the first place?? was it to save money? cos ahem... paying navy recruits just shy of a million isnt what i called a good initiative, SAMA was quick, workable, and it worked. If it aint broke dont blooming fix it. You cant beat DLVE and DMPS on speed can you?? Nope!

Part of it was to spend money to save money as all 3 Services had systems that were on their last legs. The figure I heard bandied about was either replace the systems now or it would cost at least £540M to replace them later. And the Army system needed replacing. UNICOM is still working from green screen monitors FFS!

[OK..Igiveup]

Slightly off topic but interesting how those in charge view it. (note lack of RAF rep)
Saw a report from BFBS.
Here you go. JPA army rollout
http://www.ssvc.com/bfbs/tv/reports/index.htm
click on watch reports and should be one for JPA Rollout
Brig Marriner
Quote: "anyone who tells you this is going to be a smooth ride...does not grasp the enormty of the change program"
and "..disengagement of HR / TG 17 chaps was a huge mistake..."

Why do our masters still insist it was planned well?

[True Blue Jack]

Brig Marriner
Quote: "anyone who tells you this is going to be a smooth ride...does not grasp the enormty of the change program"
and "..disengagement of HR / TG 17 chaps was a huge mistake..."

Why do our masters still insist it was planned well?

I've known Brig Marriner a long time - he was my boss from 2003-6. Very switched on cookie.

I noticed they bigged-up the training given to the JPAC EC staff. When they brought in the additonal staff prior to RN rollout, the formal training given was 4 days long and centred on phone answering techniques. They were then let loose on the system where they sat in a cubicle next to a long-serving (6 months max) member of staff so they had someone to turn to for advice, just so long as they weren't dealing with another caller.

As for the "no calls in the queue, average waiting time of 6 seconds", take a look at the status board. It was timed very carefully, 10:41 on a Thursday morning in the middle of the month during the week that JPA was down. Techie tea-break had finished, half the officer corps would have been in meetings, lots of aircraft off the ground, etc. Strangely no mention of the number of iSupports being dealt with.

[woollymouse]

I survived my trip to Worthy Down it seems that there are still Army bods out there with their heads in the sand praying that if they ignore JPA it will go away, and that's just the AGC! The data transfer seems to be going ok (good job most of their training Units have civvy staff however, as they seem to be genuinely interested in doing what's best for thier guys) so I didn't really have too many problems to deal with.

I surpose however we will not see the real picture emerge until after Jul when all the self server logins have been passed out.