Ooa And Public Holidays

[RIGHTHANDSPANKER]

Having just read Mar 07 Chf Clks bulletin it states that personnel who are OOA during periods of Public Holidays are NOT entitled to claim those days back with your POL on return to the UK.

The old PODL rules let you take it so why the change? The operational tempo has increased significantly in the past few years it would appear that we are getting yet another kick in the slats for deploying. If you have been OOA area for 4 months no-one is likely to miss you for a few more days.

Yet another policy decision made by someone who has never deployed!

[Tashy_Man]

Having just read Mar 07 Chf Clks bulletin it states that personnel who are OOA during periods of Public Holidays are NOT entitled to claim those days back with your POL on return to the UK.

The old PODL rules let you take it so why the change? The operational tempo has increased significantly in the past few years it would appear that we are getting yet another kick in the slats for deploying. If you have been OOA area for 4 months no-one is likely to miss you for a few more days.

Yet another policy decision made by someone who has never deployed!

If you have a decent boss (apparently there are some around) this shouldn't be too much of a problem but i can see what you are saying....one kick too far ?

In a similar situation last year we did our annual 2 monther over xmas and had LESS time off on our return than the previous year....all down to a change of sqn boss !!

Crack on.........:PDT_Xtremez_09:

[True Blue Jack]

It looks like we are losing out, but we are not. I did my first 4-month OOA under the old rules, when I came back I got 14 working days off, 9 PODL and 5 missed PHs. I've just got back from my last OOA and am in the middle of my POL. 1 day off for every 9 days in theatre; my 127 day deployment works out as 14 working days off. QED.

[RIGHTHANDSPANKER]

Don't get me wrong the 1 day off for every 9 is a good thing. But when the powers at be turn round and say that this factors in missed PH this really grips my sh!t. You can do an OOA FU or Non-FU and not miss a PH, yet you still get the same entitlement (1 day for every 9) than those that do.

[True Blue Jack]

Don't get me wrong the 1 day off for every 9 is a good thing. But when the powers at be turn round and say that this factors in missed PH this really grips my sh!t. You can do an OOA FU or Non-FU and not miss a PH, yet you still get the same entitlement (1 day for every 9) than those that do.

Which means those who didn't miss the PHs are lucky, not that those who have missed them have lost out. I missed 3 PHs on my last OOA. You have to be the unluckiest man on the planet to miss 5, (Christmas/New Year and early Easter is the only way, I think) yet we all get the time off regardless. That can't be a bad thing, can it?

[Humble Scribe]

It might not be as bad as you think. Depending on how your unit credits personnel with Public Holidays you may be given the 'Authorised Absence' days regardless of the regulations. Units will generally credit all personnel with forthcoming PH's en masse and it is unlikely that they will 'remove' those personnel OOA (or about to go). Dependant on when this is actioned you may still be creditted with the PH even though you wouldn't be entitled to it. Won't always work, but as usual there will be winners & losers.

[230Tiger]

If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined! And let's face it, thats life in a blue (or green) suit!

:PDT_Xtremez_28:

[True Blue Jack]

It might not be as bad as you think. Depending on how your unit credits personnel with Public Holidays you may be given the 'Authorised Absence' days regardless of the regulations. Units will generally credit all personnel with forthcoming PH's en masse and it is unlikely that they will 'remove' those personnel OOA (or about to go). Dependant on when this is actioned you may still be creditted with the PH even though you wouldn't be entitled to it. Won't always work, but as usual there will be winners & losers.

That also works the other way sometimes. One of the guys in Bosnia was recorded by his Unit as being on Christmas grant. It had the effect of stopping all of his allowances, and not re-starting them in the New Year. Cue a sizeable shortfall at the end of Jan.

[MrMasher]

As stated by TBJ. You get a different allowance now. Averages out by the looks of it.
Some people just moan for moaning sake FFS. You get your time off dont you? Why quibble about a day or 2? You'll end up getting it back somewhere....

[Humble Scribe]

That also works the other way sometimes. One of the guys in Bosnia was recorded by his Unit as being on Christmas grant. It had the effect of stopping all of his allowances, and not re-starting them in the New Year. Cue a sizeable shortfall at the end of Jan.

True! (I just knew you'd comment on that (LOL)!!) That's why we've learnt to credit the authorised absence but rely on LM to ensure that those who should put leave in do and those who are away still get the extra PH days creditted to their ILA. Won't always happen but some people will get POL & PH.

[True Blue Jack]

Slightly off-topic but never mind. I'd love to see the stats for untaken leave this year. Always assuming anyone knows how to get the figures out of JPA.

[Humble Scribe]

Slightly off-topic but never mind. I'd love to see the stats for untaken leave this year. Always assuming anyone knows how to get the figures out of JPA.

You can execute an Excess leave enquiry in JPA reporting! We had about 50% of the unit with > 15 days leave left but lot of shifties!!!

[KingGuin]

At my gaff we had over 25% of personnel with more than 15 days leave remaining, yet less than 3% have applied to CF in excess of 15 days. What does that tell me, I'm not sure if they can't be ar*ed and wonder if it is the same RAF wide?

[Kernow]

At my gaff we had over 25% of personnel with more than 15 days leave remaining, yet less than 3% have applied to CF in excess of 15 days. What does that tell me, I'm not sure if they can't be ar*ed and wonder if it is the same RAF wide?

My experience of this is that the guys believe that they haven't had the chance to take their normal entitlement in that year so how would they take additional days to the 45 they would get in the next one.

[True Blue Jack]

JPA shows me as having 27 ILA remaining. That's an underestimate because I had to cancel my pre-OOA leave and had no opportunity to correct my balance. I am not applying to carry the excess forward, because I know I will struggle to get 30 days in again this year, never mind 45+.

I haven't touched JPA Reporting in nearly 6 months and very few of the reports were producing the expected results at the time. I take it they are working a bit better now?

[Humble Scribe]

I haven't touched JPA Reporting in nearly 6 months and very few of the reports were producing the expected results at the time. I take it they are working a bit better now?

It works OK. There is a good query you maybe interested in where you can see your pre-boarding scores and grade. Worth 'a play' when you have time!

[True Blue Jack]

It works OK. There is a good query you maybe interested in where you can see your pre-boarding scores and grade. Worth 'a play' when you have time!

Yeah, that one was working from the word go. There are a few people on here who's pre-boarding scores for last year made a good read!

[Kernow]

It works OK. There is a good query you maybe interested in where you can see your pre-boarding scores and grade. Worth 'a play' when you have time!

Refresh my memory on that one. Remember seeing it in action but not how to get there. Have mentioned it to the PSF bods but no-one seems to be aware of it.

[Kernow]

Yeah, that one was working from the word go. There are a few people on here who's pre-boarding scores for last year made a good read!

Who you on about now! Not Mr Gardening Specialist!!

[Humble Scribe]

Refresh my memory on that one. Remember seeing it in action but not how to get there. Have mentioned it to the PSF bods but no-one seems to be aware of it.

From memory, JPA reporting > JPA Armed Forces Manager RAF > Interim Board results. Execute the query then select the Board you're interested in and run query. Doesn't take long; gives you scores for unit personnel and if you click on the 'Globe' in the end column it shows the pre boarding scores for each relevant assessment (last 3/4 etc) and the total you see is the sum of all the assessments added together to give your pre-board score. Try it, it's easier than explaining it!

Just be aware though it's purely the pre-board scores and not the results of the actual PSB you're seeing. Good indication of strong/weak assessments though.

[Realist78]

It works OK. There is a good query you maybe interested in where you can see your pre-boarding scores and grade. Worth 'a play' when you have time!

I take it that's open to everyone. How?

[True Blue Jack]

I take it that's open to everyone. How?

We've let the cat out of the bag now, haven't we? It's open to HR Administrators only, I'm afraid. A year ago it was only open to Unit Career Managers, i.e., Chf Clk. From what HS says we now have wider access, but I don't see that it will ever become generally available (Data Protection).

[MrMasher]

Surely thats wrong?
Why cant the general public view this too?
With data protection we are entitled to see these details. Surely its details about us?
Is it available to line managers, eg chiefs/flt sgts?
If not, it should be.
If the local desk drivers can view this info about me then I want to as well.(If I could get 5 minutes to get onto the JPA terminal!)

[Humble Scribe]

Calm down! It's not really as interesting as it may sound; the Chf Clk now has the tools to give you an indication of how you faired pre-boarding but can only compare your scores with the other personnel on your unit. He may now be able to say which of your appraisals are the stronger according to the pre-boarders and find out your grade without ringing the CM but as far as the actual promotion board is concerned there is no more information than there was under SAMA as far as I can tell.

[KingGuin]

Surely thats wrong?
Why cant the general public view this too?
With data protection we are entitled to see these details. Surely its details about us?
Is it available to line managers, eg chiefs/flt sgts?
If not, it should be.
If the local desk drivers can view this info about me then I want to as well.(If I could get 5 minutes to get onto the JPA terminal!)

You are correct to assume that under DPA you can see anything relating to yourself; thus Chfs and FS could see their own records but not anyone elses. The reason this info is available to Chf Clks etc is that, by virtue of their experience, they are better placed to interpret scores and assess your chances of promotion.

[True Blue Jack]

Also (I stand to be corrected) it is not possible to filter the results of the report to individuals, only to ranks and trade groups. The report therefore will give Chf Clks information on all, for example, sgt armourers on his unit. Under Data Protection you are of course entitled to know what the report says about you, but not about your peers.

Like HS says, it's not nearly as interesting as it first sounds, and to be fair will make as much sense to non-shineys as the schematics of a Typhoon engine means to me. Not a lot.

[MrMasher]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Drastic backpedalling methinks............:PDT_Xtremez_30:

[Downsizer]

Back on topic, the 1 day in 9 rule for POL, does this include weekends? So for instance if I spend enough time away to qualify for say 15 days of POL, is it 15 working days (3 weeks) or 15 total days (inc weekends)?

[True Blue Jack]

Back on topic, the 1 day in 9 rule for POL, does this include weekends? So for instance if I spend enough time away to qualify for say 15 days of POL, is it 15 working days (3 weeks) or 15 total days (inc weekends)?

It's working days, i.e., Mon - Fri. That applies across the board to both daisies and shifties.

[WorsethanJPA]

Having just read Mar 07 Chf Clks bulletin it states that personnel who are OOA during periods of Public Holidays are NOT entitled to claim those days back with your POL on return to the UK.

The old PODL rules let you take it so why the change? The operational tempo has increased significantly in the past few years it would appear that we are getting yet another kick in the slats for deploying. If you have been OOA area for 4 months no-one is likely to miss you for a few more days.

Yet another policy decision made by someone who has never deployed!

After speaking to my protege, he has a valid point which has been missed by everyone on this forum.
In a nutshell, our bank holidays and Christian holidays are being 'downgraded' to just normal days. I accept that some people may miss the PH's althougher, but guys & girls a lot of us are still religious and find it offensive that this f@#king Labour government is pandering to the PC idiots who state that we we are no longer a Christian country but a multi cultural one!!! We are just asking that the PH's be recognised as what they are, not just another day on PDL.

[Realist78]

Also (I stand to be corrected) it is not possible to filter the results of the report to individuals, only to ranks and trade groups. The report therefore will give Chf Clks information on all, for example, sgt armourers on his unit. Under Data Protection you are of course entitled to know what the report says about you, but not about your peers.

Like HS says, it's not nearly as interesting as it first sounds, and to be fair will make as much sense to non-shineys as the schematics of a Typhoon engine means to me. Not a lot.

Oh really? a bit pre judgemental me thinks. You underestimate the intelligence of techies (not all, I'll give you that). Most people have a fair grasp on promotion matters, 6000s etc and can (in the most part) easily interpret information. As for (mentioned on a previous post) Chief Clerks being in the best position to ascertain an individuals promotion prospects? Even PMA give out duff gen frequently, I know of one (ex) Chief Clerk who gave out such drivel on supposed career interviews that he was a laughing stock to the camp's seniors but was taken at face value by the young lads. :PDT_Xtremez_09:

[True Blue Jack]

Oh really? a bit pre judgemental me thinks. You underestimate the intelligence of techies (not all, I'll give you that). Most people have a fair grasp on promotion matters, 6000s etc and can (in the most part) easily interpret information. As for (mentioned on a previous post) Chief Clerks being in the best position to ascertain an individuals promotion prospects? Even PMA give out duff gen frequently, I know of one (ex) Chief Clerk who gave out such drivel on supposed career interviews that he was a laughing stock to the camp's seniors but was taken at face value by the young lads. :PDT_Xtremez_09:

I underestimate nothing.

[Humble Scribe]

This is how it is then. The Chf Clk can now run a report under JPA that show the pre-boarding scores for each promotion board; for example Cpl - Sgt MT Techs. The results will show a combined score on how the pre-boarding cell have 'marked' the counting F6000's (3/4 or 5 depending on ranks) and you are also able to see the individual years scores (marked out of 10). The total you see is the total of all the reports added together which, presumably, are placed in order and according to the quota of the prom board are used to work out the A or B candidates. The A grades are then presented to the actual promotion board in alphabetical order for them to come to their own conclusions on who to promote. The pre-board scores then have no bearing on the actual prom board.

The actual use of this report to the Chf Clk is debatable. Whilst he can see who has been A graded from his own unit this has no bearing on whether they will be selected for promotion. On my own recent board, I received 5 points more on pre-boarding than a colleague but he was selected 3 places above me on the actual board! The only possible use I can see to the Chf Clk or the individual is that they can see which years reports are the stronger and thus whether you're heading in the right direction or not.

I wouldn't bother rushing to PSF on Monday morning either as these reports are only compiled just before the prom board, so unless your board sits next week there will be little value in seeing it.

Hope that clears a few things up.

[PSFbeatch]

erm actually.... i think you will find pre JPA for completing a four month det you would have got 9 days PODL (working days) and 5 ALA... which stands for accumulated leave allowance, which meant you were allowed to submit 5 days annual leave to run concurrently with your PODL. There was never any mention of taking public holidays...in lieu.

[True Blue Jack]

erm actually.... i think you will find pre JPA for completing a four month det you would have got 9 days PODL (working days) and 5 ALA... which stands for accumulated leave allowance, which meant you were allowed to submit 5 days annual leave to run concurrently with your PODL. There was never any mention of taking public holidays...in lieu.

What's this? Is this thread going back on topic? Saints be praised!

Since you mention it, pre-JPA the "Funcitional Standard" for leave taken after a 4-month OOA was 14 working days made up of 9 PODL (as has been said), the remaining 5 coming from public holidays actually missed topped up with annual leave. Functional Standard meant that an individual returning from OOA should expect to take that much time off before returning to work. This could (should have?) only be interfered with in the rarest of circumstances.

All this is irrelevant because it has not applied for 12 months. Happy birthday JPA!

[SgtScribbly]

Oh really? a bit pre judgemental me thinks. You underestimate the intelligence of techies (not all, I'll give you that). Most people have a fair grasp on promotion matters, 6000s etc

come on then realist, impart your knowledge on us and lets see what you really know then, and we will see how close the judgmentaling (just made that up) was.

Shal we start with promotion matters or F6000s? Perhaps you could run us through what JPA appraisal is going to do for us while you are at it. :PDT_Xtremez_30:

[Boarderlyne]

Oh really? a bit pre judgemental me thinks. You underestimate the intelligence of techies (not all, I'll give you that). Most people have a fair grasp on promotion matters, 6000s etc and can (in the most part) easily interpret information. As for (mentioned on a previous post) Chief Clerks being in the best position to ascertain an individuals promotion prospects? Even PMA give out duff gen frequently, I know of one (ex) Chief Clerk who gave out such drivel on supposed career interviews that he was a laughing stock to the camp's seniors but was taken at face value by the young lads. :PDT_Xtremez_09:

Off Topic Not underestimating anybody's intelligence, just giving a fair assesment of how different our job is to the techie. Give me a spanner and tell me to fix that avionics system on the Tonka and I would be proper fecked! In the same way, we would expect a techie to run screaming for the hills, if we sat him down at a desk and told him to carry out a gate count on 300 bods.:PDT_Xtremez_34:

Everybody's trade is different. If you have had the nonce and the drive to investigate what the work is like in another trade, then good on you. But don't expect everybody to have the same knowledge level as you is all that we are saying.Off Topic

However, back on track. :PDT_Xtremez_28: Is there a derfinitive answer in JSP 760 about Public Holidays, during your OOA, being wiped off your leave balance if you are taking the new verson of PODL?

[True Blue Jack]

However, back on track. :PDT_Xtremez_28: Is there a derfinitive answer in JSP 760 about Public Holidays, during your OOA, being wiped off your leave balance if you are taking the new verson of PODL?

Public holidays are a nightmare on JPA. I'm not sure what the JSP has to say on the matter, but the Desk Manual goes into great detail about "Mass Update Absences" and how we need to create periods of 'Authorised Absence' for PHs.

That usually relies on the individual clearing the Authorised Absence by submitting his leave application for Easter or whatever. This was very difficult to achieve in the days before JPA. The alternative is for Unit HR to record the whole unit as on leave over those days; this also causes problems with those who have worked over the holiday. One of the lads in Bosnia had all his allowances stopped because his unit recorded him as being on leave over Christmas.

I would be very interested to learn how Sainsbury's manage PHs on their Oracle HR system.

[WorsethanJPA]

Public holidays are a nightmare on JPA. I'm not sure what the JSP has to say on the matter, but the Desk Manual goes into great detail about "Mass Update Absences" and how we need to create periods of 'Authorised Absence' for PHs.

That usually relies on the individual clearing the Authorised Absence by submitting his leave application for Easter or whatever. This was very difficult to achieve in the days before JPA. The alternative is for Unit HR to record the whole unit as on leave over those days; this also causes problems with those who have worked over the holiday. One of the lads in Bosnia had all his allowances stopped because his unit recorded him as being on leave over Christmas.

I would be very interested to learn how Sainsbury's manage PHs on their Oracle HR system.

TBJ,
Concur with what you are saying, the mass update process doesn't work anyway. What we have done here at my unit is inform all the personnel (especially singlies) via SRO's/Scrolling news articles etc several weeks ago to submit a hard copy leave (sorry absence) pass, so that the clerks can action them. This system has worked, as we did it over the Xmas period too, so far no complaints about food charges!!!!
We were told that come 1st Apr (today), JPA will automatically give everyone 9 extra days which equates to all the PH's over a year, however we'll have to wait and see tomorrow!!!!

[True Blue Jack]

We were told that come 1st Apr (today), JPA will automatically give everyone 9 extra days which equates to all the PH's over a year, however we'll have to wait and see tomorrow!!!!

It's a step in the right direction, I suppose, but people will still need to submit absence requests (I'm getting used to the terminology :PDT_Xtremez_30:) to clear the additional days. I used to nag people like hell for it; after the tsunami in 2004 I thought I had a cast iron rod to beat them with, but there were still a significant number of people who just didn't bother.

[Realist78]

come on then realist, impart your knowledge on us and lets see what you really know then, and we will see how close the judgmentaling (just made that up) was.

Shal we start with promotion matters or F6000s? Perhaps you could run us through what JPA appraisal is going to do for us while you are at it. :PDT_Xtremez_30:

The point I was trying to make was...to dismiss the ability of techies to understand what is placed in front of them without giving them the chance is a tad patronising. Obviously, we(royal) don't have an extremely detailed knowledge of everything in the admin world but i think it's fair to say that SNCOs have a reasonable grasp. If we stray into the unknown or want additional help/knowledge, then we come and ask experts on the subject like yourself. As for knowledge on 6000s, I think I have more than a rudimentary knowledge of them as I currently do about 6 1st ROs, 60 2nd ROs as well as proofreading another 40.
Why would I want to run through the JPA appraisal system without having experienced it? I daresay it will be a steep learning curve when it appears.:raf:

[Humble Scribe]

TBJ,
Concur with what you are saying, the mass update process doesn't work anyway. What we have done here at my unit is inform all the personnel (especially singlies) via SRO's/Scrolling news articles etc several weeks ago to submit a hard copy leave (sorry absence) pass, so that the clerks can action them. This system has worked, as we did it over the Xmas period too, so far no complaints about food charges!!!!
We were told that come 1st Apr (today), JPA will automatically give everyone 9 extra days which equates to all the PH's over a year, however we'll have to wait and see tomorrow!!!!

Interesting concept an one we'd dismissed as a retrograde step as we're trying to move away from hard copy leave passes and the time taken to action leave on JPA is 5 times that which it used to take on SAMA. We've given people the credit for PH and are requesting LM's ensure that those not on duty take the leave; you then have to provide the stat, after the PH, of those who have taken leave and work out who's conning us!

Not saying either system is right or wrong; just depends what works on your unit. Crediting 9 days at the start of the LY is another option (I 'd not heard that was a possibility) but that doesn't take into account this POL regulation.

Either way it's a bu99ers muddle that the shineys are left to sort out at unit level as they see fit.

[PSFbeatch]

What's this? Is this thread going back on topic? Saints be praised!

Since you mention it, pre-JPA the "Funcitional Standard" for leave taken after a 4-month OOA was 14 working days made up of 9 PODL (as has been said), the remaining 5 coming from public holidays actually missed topped up with annual leave. Functional Standard meant that an individual returning from OOA should expect to take that much time off before returning to work. This could (should have?) only be interfered with in the rarest of circumstances.

All this is irrelevant because it has not applied for 12 months. Happy birthday JPA!

the remaining 5 from public holidays...? sorry but accumulated leave allowance definately isnt admin code for missed bank holidays...it refers to the leave you would have been likely to take on average if you werent on det...it was in the AP...I had this argument with an old boss... when trying to reclaim mine trust me its there, so in actual fact we arent losing anything...!

[True Blue Jack]

the remaining 5 from public holidays...? sorry but accumulated leave allowance definately isnt admin code for missed bank holidays...it refers to the leave you would have been likely to take on average if you werent on det...it was in the AP...I had this argument with an old boss... when trying to reclaim mine trust me its there, so in actual fact we arent losing anything...!

Please remember that this is out-of-date. It doesn't apply any more, so there is no point arguing about it. But I'm right!:PDT_Xtremez_30:

[Humble Scribe]

Sorry to join your arguement but I agree with TBJ! I can't recall what the AP, JSP or any other book said about PODL & PH but I know that for the last 5 years before JPA, we credited missed bank holidays against the ALA, the rest of the 5 days being annual lve.

[PSFbeatch]

Sorry to join your arguement but I agree with TBJ! I can't recall what the AP, JSP or any other book said about PODL & PH but I know that for the last 5 years before JPA, we credited missed bank holidays against the ALA, the rest of the 5 days being annual lve.

without wanting to sound cheeky.. suggest you read the AP then...cos my old snec quoted me ord for word then faxed me the except to MPA and like someone said its out of date now, so who cares?

[Humble Scribe]

without wanting to sound cheeky.. suggest you read the AP then...cos my old snec quoted me ord for word then faxed me the except to MPA and like someone said its out of date now, so who cares?

Let's agree not to care then!

[True Blue Jack]

Let's agree not to care then!

Sounds like a plan. Let's bitch about techies instead - much more fun :PDT_Xtremez_30:

[Humble Scribe]

I've had a think about this one and I think it's grossly unfair that you can still accumulate PH's when you're on maternity Leave (OML) but when you're serving Queen & Country on Ops, you can't! Something wrong there me thinks!

[True Blue Jack]

I've had a think about this one and I think it's grossly unfair that you can still accumulate PH's when you're on maternity Leave (OML) but when you're serving Queen & Country on Ops, you can't! Something wrong there me thinks!

We could always put our heads together and submit a redress, but I suspect all that would happen is that the POL entitlement would be reduced in order to accommodate the reinstated PHs. I've just had 3 weeks off work for the cost of 1 day ALA - I really don't think we have cause for complaint.

[Humble Scribe]

We could always put our heads together and submit a redress, but I suspect all that would happen is that the POL entitlement would be reduced in order to accommodate the reinstated PHs. I've just had 3 weeks off work for the cost of 1 day ALA - I really don't think we have cause for complaint.

Never had cause to complain about leave myself, (working in PSF helps!) but it does seem a little unfair and somebody will pick up on it now I've let the cat out of the bag. Oops!