View Full Version : Uk Conscription
M_for_Mother
13-12-2005, 14:48
Don't panic! This is not a news headline!
Just got back from Norway where they have conscription for 17-19 yr olds. Their period of service lasts 12 months and, aside from Military Training, they cover the basics of DIY and other 'life skills'. Unfortunately they all have hairstyles akin to 'Busted' and their military looks like a Jamboree.
Any opinions on the pros/cons of a return to conscription in the UK?
Why should the forces be forced into being a nanny for every yobo, lout and waste of space that society has to offer. Look at how effective conscripts are from every country that has them, and you realise that all the time and effort put into the idea is a complete waste of time and money.
Why should the RAF be a dumping ground because the jails are getting full.
M_for_Mother
13-12-2005, 15:10
Fair enough, but do you think that Military Training can offer young people valuable skills for their future? I believe that there are certain elements that kids would do well to take on board; responsibility, teamwork, discipline. I can go on.
Also, It never hurts to be shown how to wire a plug properly in the first place.
So basically take away all responsibility from parents to bring their sprogs up properly, because someone else will pick up the pieces and turn their kids into acceptable members of the community at a later date. I still say its pouring valuable resources down the drain, and who's budget would the whole concept come out of.
oldhamboy1967
13-12-2005, 15:26
I agree with Plumber, I don't want to see the UK Services turned in to a solution for the ills of British society. I know it could be argued that we already are taking on waifs and strays but at least we are all volunteers and just arbitrarily drafting people just dilutes our professional ethos.
It's interesting that many European Armed Forces are moving to a 100% model and away from national service.
rest have risen above me
13-12-2005, 15:36
Conscription poses one rather tricky Moral question... Do you send itinerant yobbo who doesn't want to be a soldier to fight in Iraq?
It's all very well saying it teaches them life skills and discipline, but at the cost of someone's son caught by an insurgent bomb. I know we don't want to go either but we volunteered (no thanks back from Tony Bliar). Surely that would be against The Human rights rubbish we signed up to in europe.
It wouldn't bother me about my son (16) It'd save a fortune on my food bills the scrounging student that he is..lol...(His mum'd have a fit if she knew I'd said said that)
I suppose its one way of dealing with the granny mugging hoodies roaming the streets falling from one pub to the next because they're all open for 24hrs now.
Bad idea.
Hopefully HM Armed Forces are still seen as one of the best in the world, if not the best when comparing size for size (no sniggering at the back)
Adding 2 year conscripts into the mix would be a nightmare.
Who would train them in these 'life skills' Most of us are too busy trying to do our own jobs without teaching snotty nosed kids who don't want to be there how to wire a plug. The treasury would have a heart attack if you asked for money to train people who will only be able to give return of service for ~18 months (presuming a 6 month ish plug wiring course)
Fablon biff chit
13-12-2005, 18:55
Ah, the old favourite. I used to support it, but these are not the 50s/60s anymore!
As an all volunteer force, I think we are best off. As a smal force, we should be oversubscribed, and have harder basic training - but forcing oiks into the system would be a mistake IMO.
If the chavs on the street dont respect authority in schools and at home, a big nasty cpl shouting at them will not gain it!
DrillInstructor
13-12-2005, 20:18
If the chavs on the street dont respect authority in schools and at home, a big nasty cpl shouting at them will not gain it!
I'd have a bloody good go!
(Would only work if 'old school' methods were sanctioned however. Otherwise I fear it would be I on the wrong side of an ASBO!)
Bluntend
13-12-2005, 23:10
Shouldn't this be in the 'general chit chat forum'? Unless of course we're thinking of conscripting yobs into Flt and Sqn Cdr jobs. :confused:
Standards
14-12-2005, 14:26
I am not in favour of a two year conscription, I am in favour of some sort of national service. It would not have to be purely military, there are many things that could be opened up to provide people with some sort of responsibility towards their local community or a service to the country. The timescale could be 12 months and this could be done in blocks if need be. I think that it is time that younger people are exposed to how things in the country run.
Discipline the buggers!
Standards!
M_for_Mother
14-12-2005, 14:38
I was going to ask if spending 1 year/2 years in the ranks (during conscripted service) before Commissioning would benefit Junior Officers.
thoughts?
I think that Standard's idea would be the only solution. The UK military is running on a shoe string budget and no way would the Government be able to fund training for Military National Service kids.
A community service period would in my mind be most beneficial. It would allow certain individuals to put something back into their community and allow some of the more 'dosser' types to stay off the dole and maybe learn that they can in fact contribute something to society.
I was going to ask if spending 1 year/2 years in the ranks (during conscripted service) before Commissioning would benefit Junior Officers.
thoughts?
Apart from seeing how the whole thing works (covered during IOT I'd presume) I can't see what benefit it would have for anyone, commissioned or not. Lets face it being a conscrpit and being treated as such for 2 years would put most people off joining up properly. Why do you think you might have benefitted from it? (no digs a serious question).
M_for_Mother
14-12-2005, 16:10
Hmmm, not sure.
On one hand it would certainly be an advantage to know the very basics of the trade from the deep down and dirty level. And I suspect that the troops may be more inclined towards Officers if they knew that it was a natural progression thing rather than a result of a few years studying Media Lab Arts at Royal Holiday.
On the other hand, you don't get a whole lot of constructive work out of a trainee who only serves for 2 yrs, when training, leave, etc is considered.
firmly sat on the fence on this one.
Bluntend
14-12-2005, 16:42
I must admit, I'm strongly in favour of the community service idea.
The only way I can see the 'conscript' approach working would be for the 'conscripts' to have minders or mentors (rather than full time servicemen) to ensure they benefit from the facilities and experiences that a stint in the Forces can provide - the AT, a bit of travel, sport, etc all in a military theme, but perhaps away from the more dangerous aspects of military life. All the while, the 'conscripts' would be required to contribute something to the Forces. Now, whether this contribution would be in the provision of assistance in kitchens, works services, a 'SWO's gang' or whether it would be more physically and intelectually demanding, for example working on some of the hardware, depends on the individuals. The one key point though would be the cost and I cannot imagine the Defence Budget being able to sustain this kind of project.
There have been some interesting documentaries in recent years. Bad Boys Army was ok but there was an earlier programme where a handful of young offenders were given the option to reduce their punishment by spending 6 months with the Army (rather than 18 months in a young offenders institute). Some seemed to be affected by their experience in a really positive way, some were affected less positively and ellected to take the 18 months. Unfortunately, the programme failed to follow up on whether any of the individuals had managed to stay on the straight and narrow.
Fablon biff chit
14-12-2005, 17:52
Spending 2 years in a RAF environment is hardly hard training (which is surely better for the sense of acheivement)...
DoesMyBumLookBigInThis?
15-12-2005, 01:35
I spent time last year on an exercise with the Israeli Air Force and had some very interesting chats with some of their guys. One in particular had been brought up in South Africa and London but was conscripted back at 18 to serve his time in Israel. He completed his time and was 'released'. He then returned back into service commissioned (albeit a different branch) and I asked him why (by some strange twists of fate, he could have joined the RAF and continue living in the UK)?? His response was he felt honoured to serve his country (taking into account he was not brought up there) and was truely there to serve and protect etc etc this reponse was valid throughout the entire Sqn - he didn't see that kind of honour in the RAF. Ask someone why they joined the RAF - how many will respond with such respect and dignity?? Likely answer: pays not bad, reasonable job security when i joined/good pension.....
I do believe that some sort of discipline would be good in todays youth - in my day it was taught at school too: leather belt/cane/detentions that meant something...
Just a thought to ponder on over a coffee!
The Controller
15-12-2005, 09:26
It should be interesting to note (to some!) that National Service / Conscription did no harm to 2 other contributors to this forum....You Can Call Me AL and Hilston Pols! Both well-grounded...and VERY old. :o
You Can Call Me Al
15-12-2005, 09:53
Both well-grounded...and VERY old Superfluous G in that sentence! FAT Controller - we've had words before; your libellous statements will not go unchallenged! Pot - kettle.....
Back to the topic. Nope, I've forgotten what it was about. :confused:
Oh yes, conscription. Dilutes the expertise modern fighting forces need. Can't work.
Nope, don't want the scum in my Air Force. I agree with some kind of community service, but since we signed up to the Human rights thingy, we would be hard pressed to make the chav and chavettes of this world actually do anything. Agree with DrillInstructor if we do it, we do it properly, old school styley (kick it!)
Inch High PI
15-12-2005, 13:31
Am with Stax on this, I am young (26, although I can't seem to have a nights sleep without having to get up for a pi*h anymore???) and joined up when I was 19.
When I joined up in 98, I think chavism was just coming in so we had a reasonably good intake, but I now see some of the new people coming through the system and I can do nothing but shake my head in despair.
Some of them have joined for totally the wrong reason an expect everything on a fookin plate. Maybe its just me that has been lucky, that I have had some good JNCOs and SNCOs since I finished basic and trade training.
If we were to conscript chavs and chavettes into the RAF, RN or Army it would have to be done 1950s style, or the wee neds would run amock. How are we meant to punish chavs that won't do what their told, nowadays?
I watched badlads army and the previous programmes and thought they were quite entertaining and in some cases they achieved their aim and turned chavs into decent blokes that realised the error of their ways. Obviously there was some playing up to cameras but I think the "instructors" came across quite well and some of the lads even joined up at he end.
So what I propose is begin chav conscription for the army (not the air force, we are far to civilised) and bring all the old, crusty most evil nasty bast*rd retired RSMs etc back into service and let them beast chavs for two years.
goatblower
15-12-2005, 13:33
Got a better idea, why not castrate the scum, so breeding would be impossible. This could be done at minimum taxpayer expence (couple of good old London bricks) and there could be regional and national competitions held monthly to see who gets to do it. Something along the lines of the Lottery perhaps??? After a few decades the Hoodies and scumbuckets would cease to exist and we could all relax in our new found eutopia!!!
Harrahhhh....
Anyway, no to conscription please, its hard enough to get the ballbags we are getting now to do any work!!! :D :D
Marshalloftheraf
15-12-2005, 14:25
I'm told the thing with the bricks that you mentioned.... It can hurt!
Especially if you trap your fingers between the bricks!
:D
TheHogwartsBEngO
16-12-2005, 16:28
I'm with goatblower on this (careful how you say that!) - the national cull of chavs and scum would save a furtune! No more sponging off the state (don't get me started - it's not immigrants, but UK born layabouts that are bleeding the country dry) and not only that, the general reduction in the number of violent, illiterate, social responsibility dodging, truent playing brats would reduce the number of state-funded schools that are required. This would free-up some delightful 'prime for re-development' real-esate in up-coming town-centre locations (now free from free-roaming drugged-up yobs).
You with me Plumber and Bluntend? :D ;)
all us decent citizens can pay for our charming and delightful 'straight from a CS Lewis novel' middle-class darlings to attend proper schools.
With appropriate admissions tests of course.:D
rest have risen above me
16-12-2005, 17:22
Is the world to rights yet?
No it's bl**dy not. Chavs Chavettes Neds scum the lot of em if. Working on the fact that if most of the people posting on this site are in the forces and of a similar age range to myself (obviously quite a wide range depending upon the age of the lady I'm talking to)(Seems reasonable) then I blame our parents who had the vote in the 60's and in their efforts to be cool hip right on or whatever the bloody hippies said. They let the left overs from WWII into power. Obviously they weren't the brave upstanding lads and lasses that actually fought but the liberal bleeding heart, lily livered concientious objectors who shied away from fighting the Hun and Co. This allowed a small chink in the armour that held the louts at bay. They brought their kids up to be free thinking individuals who then, again wrongly thought that their kids should have the same right to free thought. What this generation forgot is that they were moderated by an education system that was still allowed to beat 7 bells out of you for having your shirt untucked. Unlike today where shouting is frowned upon so there is no control or steering to the development of todays youth. Now unfortuneately putting them into the forces is like shutting the door after the horse has bolted they can't be turned into reasonable people without law suit after law suit for not allowing them to have burberry webbing or for being made to get up before 9. We need to curtail the welfare state benefits bring back workhouses and like has been said before pray to god that they don't breed.:D
To this end next time I see my parents I fully intend to tell them that all my problems are their fault because of this, and that it's not fair that I have to go to bed by 11 when my little sister goes at 10:30.
The Controller
17-12-2005, 20:08
Blimey 'Rest Have Risen Above Me'!!!! Feel a bit strong about this do we??;)
an education system that was still allowed to beat 7 bells out of you for having your shirt untucked
Used to leave mine untucked on purpose! AHhhh the cane....now that was real enjoyment....er sorry....schooling!
PS...I had the vote in the 60's! Feel VERY old now!
PPS...You Can Call Me Al had the vote in the 40's.....he still wonders why we don't reinstate Churchill as PM. Bless.
shoutingwind
18-12-2005, 00:33
>>>Ask someone why they joined the RAF - how many will respond with such respect and dignity??>>>
<in a very small voice in the corner>
umm, me? i joined at 17 and been in 3 years.i joined because i wanted to serve my country and because i believe in duty. please don't hit me.
if i'd joined for money, i wouldn't have i'd have a mind numbing yet high paying office job or been a shelf stacker at tescos.
don't bring in national service because it won't work. if you could beat the cr@p out of them then maybe, but being a pink fluffy bunny hugging kinda air force, it ain't gonna work.
The Controller
18-12-2005, 01:37
Shoutingwind...
i joined because i wanted to serve my country and because i believe in duty. please don't hit me.
Wouldn't dream of it!!!! In fact (for fear of sounding V old and patronising)....I would deem it an honour for you to work in my/our section!
Hurrah! Youngsters are not all bad after all:)
Bushy Mills
18-12-2005, 08:08
umm, me? i joined at 17 and been in 3 years.i joined because i wanted to serve my country and because i believe in duty. please don't hit me.
Hooray - and there in lies the reason we do what we do (or in my case - did)
Cos the whole generation is not crap and every so often we can still recognise ourselves...:)
rest have risen above me
18-12-2005, 22:45
TC of course I feel strongly and you can't pass the chance of a good rant up. If you can't rant every so often you might as well let the little 5ods into the Royal Air Force...Oh we are letting them in ....Better stop ranting then... AND I HOPE THAT VOTE WAS IN THE LAST BIT OF THE 60'S SO IT DIDN'T COUNT;) ....
There was a little voice in the corner. START SHOUTING LIKE YOUR NAME SAYS:D It sounded quite sensible and refreshing.
DoesMyBumLookBigInThis?
18-12-2005, 23:32
>>>Ask someone why they joined the RAF - how many will respond with such respect and dignity??>>>
<in a very small voice in the corner>
umm, me? i joined at 17 and been in 3 years.i joined because i wanted to serve my country and because i believe in duty. please don't hit me.
if i'd joined for money, i wouldn't have i'd have a mind numbing yet high paying office job or been a shelf stacker at tescos.
don't bring in national service because it won't work. if you could beat the cr@p out of them then maybe, but being a pink fluffy bunny hugging kinda air force, it ain't gonna work.
Ahhh - she's the one!! I knew there was one out there somewhere - quick get her to a main CIO and a star role on the next docusoap!!!
Well done - to be honest, I joined for all the right honourable reasons and I was shocked by the lack of such direction when I got in! Hopefully you will continue to serve for many more years under the steam you joined up and encourage those below you to do the same.
shoutingwind
20-12-2005, 01:25
LOOK AND SEE HOW LOUD I CAN SHOUT!
thanks guys its nice to know not everyone laughs if you join for the right reasons. conscription would be usefull for one thing and one thing only- they could do gate gaurd! it'd save the rest of use the b@llache!:)
DrillInstructor
20-12-2005, 09:42
Good on yer ShoutingWind! I thought we were a dying breed. It warms the cockles to know that there are those of the younger generation who carry the flame of old school ethos.
TheHogwartsBEngO
20-12-2005, 10:19
I joined with all of those principles and full of enthusiasm. I still am and as loyal as ever. However, the powers that be determined that there are just too many of my branch. So, they stop any extensions of service, irrespective of performance, and achieve the desired reduction in numbers. Many of us are in the same boat and will be allowed to leave, taking with us our on-the-job experience (which at this early stage is part of the preparation for more senior positions), our 2 years of official training (and only 4 years productive service) and all of our potential.
I'm trying not to sound bitter - but I can't help feeling let down by an organisation I have been extremely proud to be part of. Anyone else in a similar situation?
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