New IOT Cse starts, 32 weeks

[tag_lincoln]

Never started a thread b4. The new IOT Cse started last week. 32 weeks, with 2 goes at deployment training (formerly Peacekeeper, now Decisive Edge), lots more self awareness and hopefully better junior officers' in the future. IOT is something most officers' feel strongly about!! Hopefully some relevant comments and not biased rants. Involved on the new cse if anyone wants useful insights although not a Flt Cdr (before you stone me). :D

[balo_monkey]

Never started a thread b4. The new IOT Cse started last week. 32 weeks, with 2 goes at deployment training (formerly Peacekeeper, now Decisive Edge), lots more self awareness and hopefully better junior officers' in the future. IOT is something most officers' feel strongly about!! Hopefully some relevant comments and not biased rants. Involved on the new cse if anyone wants useful insights although not a Flt Cdr (before you stone me). :D

How exactly are you 'involved' then?

[Sunnyside_Up]

One thing IOT should look at (or maybe have looked at..) is looking more at the history of the Air Force and its founders! Its shocking when you speak to an Officer with very little knowledge of our history! Now, the Army really study their roots and all the great (and maybe not so great) leaders over the century. Take a leaf out of Sandhursts book! At IOT they tried to shove you into the "One size fits all" leadership mentailty where you should be "punchy" (This involves pointing with your whole hand whilst briefing) and not much else!

[Stax]

(This involves pointing with your whole hand whilst briefing) and not much else!

I believe its called an "indication". A point is what you get at Squash and Bridge (according to the "how to be an officer" booklet)

[M_for_Mother]

Don´t forget the emphasis that was always placed on remaining in control and never trusting your subordinates to complete a given task. That mentality always goes down well in this community!!!

For what its worth, I have a lot of confidence that the new cse will provide a better grounding for YOs.

The only concern that I have is over the type of personalities recruited to act as Flt Cdrs. These guys are the very first impression that cadets get of the average RAF Officer, and its just nuts that we don´t actively select our very best to train the future Officer Corps, unlike the Army.

I don´t think all IOT Flt Cdrs are cr@p, but the tone is sadly lowered a just a few key losers who are on a power-trip since they were unable to cut the mustard in their branch. It is unfortunate that some cadets leave IOT with only one opinion of their mentors, ´Those who can´t do, teach´.

MFM

[Bluntend]

There are also plans to double up 1st tourists with more experienced Flt Cdrs of certain Branches because of a surplus of JOs. Basically from what I understand (anyone better informed please feel free to correct me) because we now have too many junior EngOs, many will find themselves posted into Flts/Sqns as a 'BEngO' to 'learn the ropes'. Now, I think its fair to say that many 1st tourists have a pretty steep learning curve following graduation from branch specific training as it is and maybe a tour without any kind of delegated responsibility would do many the world of good, but I can't help thinking that all the BEngO will acheive is to get in the way. Surely the solution is to ensure the training machine only produces the very best Officers, rather than some that are ill-equipped to deal with the 'pressures' of their 1st tour.

[Stax]

D'you know, with the popularity of this post, I think it would be a good idea if the Officers got their own forum! How do members of E-Goat feel about this, somewhat controversial, idea? All answers on a postcard (or a stuck down envelope) to "Behind the hot water pipes, Gents toilet, Kings Cross Station, London".

[Sunnyside_Up]

Hmmm, didn't M for Mother get chewed out for suggesting such an idea?!

[Sunnyside_Up]

I don´t think all IOT Flt Cdrs are cr@p, but the tone is sadly lowered a just a few key losers who are on a power-trip since they were unable to cut the mustard in their branch. It is unfortunate that some cadets leave IOT with only one opinion of their mentors, ´Those who can´t do, teach´.

MFM

And it doesn't help that they do a weekend FCIC (Flight Commanders Induction Course?) which consists of a team of potential Flt Cdrs bimbling round the back of CHOM on a couple of planks avoiding shark infested custurd. Oh the shame...

P.S And lets not forget the tripods! In fact- is there still an emphasis on tripod building?!

[Sunnyside_Up]

Involved on the new cse if anyone wants useful insights although not a Flt Cdr (before you stone me). :D
Can we have some insights now please! :)

[tag_lincoln]

:eek:

Couple of insights then.

1. The reason there is a new cse is cos as you've alluded (e?), in the past there were some gits who were just on ego trips there, normally cos they had crashed too many ac or lost to much money etc, a survey in late 90's found that 70% of Officers found it a negative experience. It's taken this long to get a new cse designed. Flt Cdrs must must now be volunteers and selected. The only snag now is lots of them sweat on promotion and leave as Squabbling Bleeders leaving the Dept in the lurch, the jerks have finally been weedled out hopefully. The Flt Cdrs Cse is 6 weeks long and covers a myriad of things, although as its the RAF shark infested custard does play its part.

2. The whole cse is based around self awareness and hopefully putting individuals in pressure situations where they can still make sensible judgment calls or realise that they don't know and ask someone who can. Thats Y FS are also wat were called flt cdrs. To give that insight in what a good SNCO can do. Before the exposure was limited to Regt and PTI Cpl and Sgts which wasnt representitive of the wider RAF.

3. Enough for starters?

[A CLING NERD SHRON]

Tag. Did you pass the English package prior to starting IOT?

[tag_lincoln]

You reminded me that another chnge is that KCL do a lot of the OS, similar to JOCC. Still servicemen involved to keep it current but not so many. And the cdts do the BAWC in the 3rd term.

[M_for_Mother]

Don´t knock Tripods fella,

My experience since IOT is that every problem I have encountered can be solved in some way by getting the boys around to build a 3-legged wooden construct. If you disagree, you´re obviously not thinking hard enough.

My biggest beef was the way that every scenario had no basis in reality. I have strong memories of passing a section of regular infantry whilst on FLC @ STANTA, whilst carrying a yellow drum half-filled with water and being yelled at by some dozy bint about radiological exposure. their pitying looks haunt me to this day!

MFM

[Stax]

Awwwwww, the orifices got their own room to play in after all. Now keep it tidy, put away the crayons when you are not using them, don't fall out and most of all, drink up your breaktime milk, it'll give you strong bones (oh! apart from your backbone which is removed on week 26 of the new course!)

[tag_lincoln]

Ref MFM and tripods,

Another inovation is having real things instead of pine poles. The first term is still pine poles and shark infested but it is explained that these are just for the process of planning, initiating,controlling,supporting,informing and evaluated can be practised. By the time they are at MilAid (Camp 1/FLC) the there are 12m masts, radio comms for cdts etc to aid in reality. A lot of dead letter boxes have been replaced with real people role playing CivPol etc. Not perfect but an improvement. Also Decisive Edge is not at Barkston but at an airfield near Nottingham that is still used occasionally with proper support elements in place.

As for the silly bints, ref my previous post. Trying hard to weedle them out during the selection process.

[M_for_Mother]

Its all good to hear but, ref my first post, is anything being put in place to prevent the dross from gaining places as Flt Cdrs?

Also I´d be interested to hear what the guys´ opinions are on the failings and strengths of the Officers that they have worked with in the past. Though aware that this may create ill-feeling, greatful for constructive comments, nobody is perfect!

Cheers

MFM

[DrillInstructor]

Forgive me for gate crashing the O's board ...

One thing IOT should look at (or maybe have looked at..) is looking more at the history of the Air Force and its founders!

Being a non-commissioned type, I was unaware that the above wasn't covered by GSK lessons at IOT. But, I'm not totally staggered to learn that it's been overlooked.

I was collecting for the RAFA Wings Appeal at the station gate a couple of years ago when a junior officer (female provost type!) asked me what I was collecting for ...

"Wings Appeal, Ma'am"

"What's the 'Wings' Appeal?"

"The annual RAFA fundraiser, Ma'am"

"RAFA ...?"

"Yes, the Royal Air Forces Association, Ma'am?"

"Oh, right, yes ..."

Trust me, a true story ... but underlined the fact that often the sausage factory pushes out a product that doesn't quite have the breadth of service knowledge that it perhaps should before hitting the streets.

[M_for_Mother]

You do get a very light Air Power and History of the RAF package during IOT, but as with many of the topics on the old course, there was a 'learn and dump' mentality held by many cadets as they were desperately trying to prep for the next challenge.

All JOs should leave Cranwell with a basic understanding of who the RAFA is though. I can only suggest that the stupidity of the lady in your example was more due to her specialisation than it was her basic training. ;)

[tag_lincoln]

Lots and Lots of OS etc at IOT. Trouble is everyone learns and dumps for an exam. Hopefully the inclusion of discussion groups with KCL similar to JOCC will help some of it sink in but only time will tell.

How do we filter out dopey officers and Git IOT Flt Cdrs? The million dollor question. Guess that girl in question will probably end up as a flt cdr.

Can't say I've ever seen any posters for RAFA at Cranwell, the cdts get a brief at sometime but for most it is buried in a million different other things.

[DoesMyBumLookBigInThis?]

So will there be more of the same in the Halton courses (Generally the quality of airman that is graduating at the moment also leaves a lot to be desired).
I know there are courses introduced on promotion later on - but a bit more of the basics RTS on GSK, military discipline a bit more of core knowledge etc etc would go down a treat.
Many recruits seem to leave Halton with an inbreed hatred to officers (unless this is simply drilled into them later by their more senior colleagues) and the typical teenage attitude that they are the boy/girl 'cause they have left home and the RAF owes them a favour...obviously they are not all like this and I am sure I will get a slating (proably from Stax) for even mentioning it.
When I went through IOT there were 2 ex-Swinderby types on my flight (and may I add they instilled a similar swinderby concept into the baby officers present) and that, call me old fashioned, is the kind of training that turns out better disciplined personnel - although admittedly not always the most rounded individuals.
Although we do not train recruits to think like Officers/SNCOs, but more and more very junior ranks are being put in the position of increased responsibility and yes I have seen some make some good decisions and some almost make some absolute shockers, unfortuently more ofthe latter. Maybe we should be thinking about making our more junior personnel better trained to cope with the reality of the jobs they will be sent to
I have frequently sourced and sent/encouraged my more junior personnel to go to courses that are not necessarily designed for their rank/trade but gives them the backing to be a bit more forthcoming and proactive in making sensible decisions. I know I am likely to be in a minority by generally haveing few personnel therefore having the time and flex at times to do this...but surely that kind of training should be abailable through the RAF automatically.

At RAF Marham there has been a JO's development course to deal with probably lots of the issues that are probably going to be covered by the new IOT course - why not do this for LACs/SACs (probably push out even better candidates for promotion to Cpl)

There are no excuses for the ignorant female police officer - RAFA is pain et buerre stuff and hopefully such stupidity will never be seen again!

[DrillInstructor]

I dont think that graduating airmen from RTS have an inbred hatred of rodneys, they haven't met enough to form that opinion. Personally I think that comes later on when it's seen as the 'done thing' to slag the 'zobs' in the crew room. As far as I'm concerned such opinions aren't worth listening to until they come from someone who's been around the block, so to speak. But I can understand how it arises as the still-wet-behind-the-ears lads and lasses strive to be accepted by the old sweats. As an officer it should be water off a ducks back as long as they show all due respect. If a young 'un thinks your useless, that can be down to the fact that they know no better, if the NCOs think that ... that's when you start worrying!

I'm not fully up to speed on what's taught at Halton (myself a product of Swinderby) but I'm led to believe that there's more GSK now in the 9 week recruit training. I'm posted to RTS in a few weeks (hence the username) and shall report back what we're teaching the little darlings if you're interested.

The locally run courses can be very good. We send our young 'uns on team work type courses at Waddington, they seem to go down well and have a visible effect on those that attend. As you said though Doesmybum, we're the lucky ones in having the man power to cut us the slack to get our guys and gals off on these courses from time to time.

[Plumber]

So will there be more of the same in the Halton courses (Generally the quality of airman that is graduating at the moment also leaves a lot to be desired).

To be honest I don't think the quality of the new peeps coming through the door are any better or worse than in the past, there are good and bad as all ways, but I do think some should have been weedled out long before they got to leave trade training.


I know there are courses introduced on promotion later on - but a bit more of the basics RTS on GSK, military discipline a bit more of core knowledge etc etc would go down a treat.

Mmmm but most of that is the stuff you learn in your first few years in the job, lets face it you have that much going on when your going through basic, getting everything to stick in your head is a pretty tall order, but yes maybe more emphasis should be put on it (just my experiences from going through Swinderby).


Many recruits seem to leave Halton with an inbreed hatred to officers (unless this is simply drilled into them later by their more senior colleagues) and the typical teenage attitude that they are the boy/girl 'cause they have left home and the RAF owes them a favour...obviously they are not all like this and I am sure I will get a slating (proably from Stax) for even mentioning it.

The attitude towards officers is something they get from the crew room slanging officers get on a daily basis. I've been guilty of this in my time, all I can say is it changes with time and people gain a greater insight into life in the mob. Mind you trying to tell a bloody minded JO that it didn't work before and its not going to work now can be like banging your head against a wall.


When I went through IOT there were 2 ex-Swinderby types on my flight (and may I add they instilled a similar swinderby concept into the baby officers present) and that, call me old fashioned, is the kind of training that turns out better disciplined personnel - although admittedly not always the most rounded individuals.

Being in the forces is all about discipline, IMHO we should go back to the bad old days way of basic training.


Although we do not train recruits to think like Officers/SNCOs, but more and more very junior ranks are being put in the position of increased responsibility and yes I have seen some make some good decisions and some almost make some absolute shockers, unfortuently more ofthe latter. Maybe we should be thinking about making our more junior personnel better trained to cope with the reality of the jobs they will be sent to
I have frequently sourced and sent/encouraged my more junior personnel to go to courses that are not necessarily designed for their rank/trade but gives them the backing to be a bit more forthcoming and proactive in making sensible decisions. I know I am likely to be in a minority by generally haveing few personnel therefore having the time and flex at times to do this...but surely that kind of training should be abailable through the RAF automatically.

Couldn't agree more, everyone needs to learn how to be able to think on their feet if and when the need arises and the more practice you have the better you get at it.

At RAF Marham there has been a JO's development course to deal with probably lots of the issues that are probably going to be covered by the new IOT course - why not do this for LACs/SACs (probably push out even better candidates for promotion to Cpl)

Surely to be selected for promotion they have already shown an ability to manage/lead. If not surely their assessments should show this.

There are no excuses for the ignorant female police officer - RAFA is pain et buerre stuff and hopefully such stupidity will never be seen again!


Like you say bread and butter stuff there.

[Stax]

So will there be more of the same in the Halton courses (Generally the quality of airman that is graduating at the moment also leaves a lot to be desired).
I know there are courses introduced on promotion later on - but a bit more of the basics RTS on GSK, military discipline a bit more of core knowledge etc etc would go down a treat.
Many recruits seem to leave Halton with an inbreed hatred to officers (unless this is simply drilled into them later by their more senior colleagues) and the typical teenage attitude that they are the boy/girl 'cause they have left home and the RAF owes them a favour...obviously they are not all like this and I am sure I will get a slating (proably from Stax) for even mentioning it.
When I went through IOT there were 2 ex-Swinderby types on my flight (and may I add they instilled a similar swinderby concept into the baby officers present) and that, call me old fashioned, is the kind of training that turns out better disciplined personnel - although admittedly not always the most rounded individuals.
Although we do not train recruits to think like Officers/SNCOs, but more and more very junior ranks are being put in the position of increased responsibility and yes I have seen some make some good decisions and some almost make some absolute shockers, unfortuently more ofthe latter. Maybe we should be thinking about making our more junior personnel better trained to cope with the reality of the jobs they will be sent to
I have frequently sourced and sent/encouraged my more junior personnel to go to courses that are not necessarily designed for their rank/trade but gives them the backing to be a bit more forthcoming and proactive in making sensible decisions. I know I am likely to be in a minority by generally haveing few personnel therefore having the time and flex at times to do this...but surely that kind of training should be abailable through the RAF automatically.

At RAF Marham there has been a JO's development course to deal with probably lots of the issues that are probably going to be covered by the new IOT course - why not do this for LACs/SACs (probably push out even better candidates for promotion to Cpl)

There are no excuses for the ignorant female police officer - RAFA is pain et buerre stuff and hopefully such stupidity will never be seen again!

Nope, no arguement from me old Gel. The standard of pondlife in the crewroom at the moment is, quite frankly, 5hite! As to RAFA, anyone who doesn't know about them from day 1 week 1 should be publicly humiliated in the village square. prior to a ducking in the pond!