Raf Trf

[M_for_Mother]

RAF TACTICAL RECOGNITION FLASH

The army utilises a system of TRFs to identify it's units & corps. This has a number of advantages, not least the great contribution they provide to unit cohesion.

The RAF wanted a similar method to identify it's personnel, but we ended up with a number plate-sized patch that reads 'ROYAL AIR FORCE', as if you were wondering!! This was originally option b, but the CAS thought that 'IDIOT' would be unclear when worn with Webbing.

What I want to know is: Are there enough Goaters out there who want to see a RAF TRF, (The same colour set-up that you get on a RAF Stable Belt)?

Who's with me?...TRF!...TRF!...TRF!

MFM

[Fablon biff chit]

Is the TRF definatley canned? I recall reading a poster in my clothing stores that said it was to be introduced. Personally I'd rather see a name badge above the pocket and either black-on-olive Albatross a la No 1's, or a aircraft outline like Army air dispatchers have (they have a dakota silhouette.)

http://www.army.mod.uk/img/rlc_trg_gp/logoairdesp.jpg

[Stax]

There was a letter on this subject a couple of RAF News' ago. I think it was the Det WO from Basra. He pointed out that whilst the "Royal Air Force" flash is OK, when you are wrapped up in ECBA, Windproofs etc you can't actually see it. If we had a TRF on the arm (as per the Army,RM etc) it would be more easily identifiable. The RAF Regt wear "DZ" patches on their field jackets and shirts, thus making it easy to see which Sqn you belong too. A muted maroon/sky blue/royal blue patch, similar to the UJ we get on CS95 would be preferable. However, regardless of what badges people want, we need to realise that CS95 is meant to be sterile, so anything that is attached should be easily removable. Just my opinion (oh, and don't I have an opinion on most subjects hee, hee, hee!)

[Fablon biff chit]

CS95 is meant to be sterile, so anything that is attached should be easily removable.

What exactly are you giving away by wearing the patch though? That you are in the RAF? Hardly a shocker! By wearing the unifrom it marks you as a forces member...

If it needs removing, velcro it!

[The Helpful Stacker]

I quite often found whilst building sandcastles that the same people that wanted an RAF TRF were the same ones who wanted the RAF to issue DPM rank slides.

So let me get this right, you want a DPM rank slide for a part of your body that can't be seen beneath your ECBA but you want a nice colourful TRF for your arm?

Hmmmm.

BTW, the 'Royal Air Force' badges aren't scaled or authorised to be worn on DDPM clothing. It appeared that some folk in Iraq knew this and decided to buy their own RAF TRF patches from Millets or something instead, patches that were about the size of a DZ flash. Must say (being the clothing reg nerd I am) that I've never seen this abomination of a badge authorised for wear either.

If you want a uniform chocka with badges join the Boy Scouts or if the requirements form them are too high, the Army.

[M_for_Mother]

Good debate guys.

I don't think anyone is trying to get a multitude of badges issued for wear on CS95, I think that the main problem is that many RAF personnel overseas are largely NFU and want a symbol to identify them in the joint environment. Being proud of the RAF, I don't think its unreasonable to ask for our colours to be worn on our uniform, rather than the hideous RAF chest badge.

We can always remove it if we need to sterilise ourselves, but its not really going to prevent an OPSEC leak if you get captured, personally I'd tell them everything I knew just to avoid an Al Queda gang-party on my behind!

I'm not encouraging personnel to depart from the dress regs, Helpful Stacker, I just want to see how many of us would like to see the regs changed. If it detracts from your personal perversion, I do not own a pair of DPM ranks slides and I have never been in the boyscouts, although I have seen your daughter's Woggle!

MFM

[The Helpful Stacker]

My daughter is 2 years old. :mad:

I have nothing against DPM ranks slides BTW. If they were issued to RAF personnel it'd make more sense to also have the 'Royal Air Force' badges or a TRF.

As it is we already have a blue rank slide and a blue/grey beret with RAF cap badge to show we are RAF. Ok, if we are wearing our S6 helmets then we only have a rank slide but its still a blue one, something not worn by our chums in the RN or Army.

[M_for_Mother]

sorry old chap, couldn't resist the Boy Scout joke! :D

The fact remains that, whether wearing an S6, CBA & webbing/assault vest or just plain CS 95, we need to display a symbol that the Army can recognise. After all, air/land integration appears to be the big thing at STC this week.

An Air Force of 41,000 cannot really afford to declare UDI and do our own thing when the common drive is to standardise.

MFM

[The Helpful Stacker]

Oh I agree, an official TRF would be preferable to the 'Royal Air Force' badges, which I believe were mainly brought in as a response to the media labelling anyone they saw in CS95 during Op Fresco as 'Army'.

To be honest though where would it stop? The unit I'm currently at is part of JHC so we have to wear natty little lightning bolt wielding ****e hawks badges on our CS95. Would we also have to wear an RAF TRF? Then there is the cost of tailoring to think about.

As it stands I'm authorised to wear three extra badges after the UJ, para, RAF number plate and ****e hawk (I only wear two but thats another discussion). Every time I replace a CS95 shirt (quite often due to their poor durability) all these badges need re-applying at the cost I believe of about 60p per badge. On top of this if the badges are continuously re-used they start to look tatty and unfortunately (in the case of the RAF badges) there wasn't sufficient money in the initial purchase budget to buy a surplus for replacement issue.

I propose that we bin the 'RAF' number plate badge and replace it with the originally planned TRF. Not only will a TRF be cheaper but we will also fall into line with the thinking of the rest of the Armed Forces (RN are introducing a TRF at the moment), something that jointery is supposed to be all about.

[Fablon biff chit]

I quite often found whilst building sandcastles that the same people that wanted an RAF TRF were the same ones who wanted the RAF to issue DPM rank slides.

The issue of blue on green rank slides is purely one that the current standard looks crap - even neglected! The RAF has long ignored the green side of things IMO and standard blue rank slides on camoflauge just looks as though the higher ups have given it no thought. Hence people seeking out thier own rank slides.

[Fablon biff chit]

As it stands I'm authorised to wear three extra badges after the UJ, para, RAF number plate and ****e hawk (I only wear two but thats another discussion). are you the 2 Sqn stacker? :) The regiment lads look daft with 2 mudguard type badges, the RAF badge, and in the case of officers RAF REGIMENT on the rank slide also!

I propose that we bin the 'RAF' number plate badge and replace it with the originally planned TRF.

I can't see that happening after all the things have just been introduced!

After all, in this new era of the Green Air Force, we need something to be distinguished from the masses, and unfortunatley it seems to be another bun fight.

[The Helpful Stacker]

In case you missed my second from last comment Trick400 I actually said I have no problem with DPM rank slides if they were issued.

The problem is, as you state, ..hence people seeking out their own rank slides.. There is no standard rank slide so every one invents their own. All manner of sub-unit names at the bottom (TSW, TCW, TMW, RAF Fire and Rescue FFS!) at the bottom, different colour rank (black, brown or other), different sizes and fonts of writing on them, green slides rather than DPM, the list goes on. We are members of a uniformed organisation and our uniform should be just that.

Generally most folk seem happy with wearing the CS95 (Army issue) style slides so why doesn't the RAF just procure the additional ranks of SAC and JT (LAC's aren't in rank long enough to worry about IMO) to add to this?

are you the 2 Sqn stacker?

No I most certainly am not, though I do feel sorry for any stacker who is informed that 2 Sqn is his next posting.

[M_for_Mother]

Can anyone confirm or deny the rumours on this thread?

Are we to have a TRF or was it discontinued in favour of the number plate?

MFM

[Fablon biff chit]

Generally most folk seem happy with wearing the CS95 (Army issue) style slides so why doesn't the RAF just procure the additional ranks of SAC and JT (LAC's aren't in rank long enough to worry about IMO) to add to this?


I understand this is underway. I had an email from a Sgt at Innsworth about it as I submitted one of those feedback forms (U need 2 know - what happened to those??) and all NCO ground trades are having them made up. However he also said they would be subject to authorisation by your CO once scaled for issue....

[Bitburger]

[QUOTE=The Helpful Stacker].

Generally most folk seem happy with wearing the CS95 (Army issue) style slides so why doesn't the RAF just procure the additional ranks of SAC and JT (LAC's aren't in rank long enough to worry about IMO) to add to this?



Most people? I think you will find most peole prefer to wear the blue, gash job diverter rank tabs when working in a joint environment :D

[pinkster]

Thats funny I thought an S6 was a respirator from the late 80's and not somwthing you put on your head, I think you mean a MK6.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Thats funny I thought an S6 was a respirator from the late 80's and not somwthing you put on your head, I think you mean a MK6.

I was just checking you were all awake... ;)

[Stax]

No I most certainly am not, though I do feel sorry for any stacker who is informed that 2 Sqn is his next posting.

Actually Helpful, if you do a good job on No 2 baloon Sqn, they look after you. I worked alongside them for a while and they made sure their stacker didn't get ferked about by anyone, its a matter of attitude. As to DPM ranks slides, they are supposed to be on issue in the near future. The Regt gave up 2 issue T-Shirts to fund the CS95 rank tabs ones for them. The only problem will be if they are going to provide SAC/JT/Steering wheels for issue to the troops. If it isn't cost effective then I doubt it.

Let me add this to the "badge" arguement. Why, now that we are phasing out JT's, do we need LAC/SAC/Steering wheel ranks. The actual rank before Cpl is Airman, the badges are attainments for passing courses/TAT's etc. Why not get rid of them completely as the Army do. Controversial? lets see.

[Fablon biff chit]

Let me add this to the "badge" arguement. Why, now that we are phasing out JT's, do we need LAC/SAC/Steering wheel ranks. The actual rank before Cpl is Airman, the badges are attainments for passing courses/TAT's etc. Why not get rid of them completely as the Army do. Controversial? lets see.

You know, that's not a bad idea at all!

[The Helpful Stacker]

I don't think many SAC's would want to be considered Privates. Although in rank they are the same the responsibility given to SAC's when compared to a Private is generally higher. Also the rank of LAC at present is used to differentiate those Airmen/women who can't be trusted on their own from those who generally can.

Funnily enough the matter of the LAC rank draws me to my other pet hate of rank disparity between the RAF/Army. Why not make LAC a proper rank with SAC/SAC(T) (I haven't included JT's as the old ones will be dead soon enough or promoted ;) ) as a timed or course dependant promotion, similar to the way L/Cpl is awarded and with equal status? LAC was a proper rank once upon a time.

[Fablon biff chit]

Funnily enough the matter of the LAC rank draws me to my other pet hate of rank disparity between the RAF/Army. Why not make LAC a proper rank with SAC/SAC(T) (I haven't included JT's as the old ones will be dead soon enough or promoted ;) ) as a timed or course dependant promotion, similar to the way L/Cpl is awarded and with equal status? LAC was a proper rank once upon a time.

Again, another good idea. LAC was a proper rank but SAC didn't exist at the time (pre 1950).

Nowadays the LAC rank is like L plates, wear for a year and discard, even though some do the year and are still idiots. I agree, make it a rank like the rest - as currently it is like a sea of SAC rank slides! This would go some way towards dividing highly experienced 10 year SACs and wet-behind-the-ears 18 month SACs.

[reddeathdrinker]

It would make sense if they issued us DPM rank slides for our CS95, as we wear the bloody stuff more often than not these days.

I'm putting off getting the big "Royal Air Farce" numberplates on my CS95 for as long as possible. If the really shiny SAC Tech wheel doesn't give me away as Air force, a subdued numberplate certainly wont.

What is it with these new issue "shiny" rank slides anyway?

[POB]

It would make sense if they issued us desert DPM rank slides for our CS95, as many wear that bloody stuff more often than not these days!

Are there any desert rank slides/number plates available?

Weren't the new shiny badges very quickly procured last year after shock headlines in the press proclaiming that the RAF would grind to a halt as it had no rank slides to issue? Can't remember the exact details but along the lines of -

"More failures in supply system" - Daily Mail
"Officers not getting saluted due rank badge order farse" - Grauniad
"New order for RAF rank badges helps local economy" - China News Daily
"Massive success for new RAF badge ordering system" - Bliars Daily Mirror

[cockneyrock]

Please, no more badges.

I am sat here in my office avoiding doing any work and can count 5 x RAF target indicators on my uniform. I do not want any more thanks.

[Twonston Pickle]

I agree with the "hold off on the Royal Air Farce badges" arguement. When wearing DPM (green or desert), our beret badges give it away - to those who need to know anway - any additional badges just attract more ridicule. Why don't we just get the roundel plastered on everything, for ferks sake.

[Norman the Storeman]

I agree with the "hold off on the Royal Air Farce badges" arguement. When wearing DPM (green or desert), our beret badges give it away - to those who need to know anway - any additional badges just attract more ridicule. Why don't we just get the roundel plastered on everything, for ferks sake.


Because the Lambretta Clothing company will sue you for using their trademark! :D

[Twonston Pickle]

Norman,

It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek but, since you mention it, the trademark does not actually belong to anyone as it is not actually a trademark. The RAF had spent some time in court with the Arcadia Group (high street stores, top-shop etc) and the court decided that the RAF had no right to ban the use of the roundel by others, despite being formed many years before the commercial groups started.

I await the great debate on intellectual property/trademarks etc. Back to the original point, we have a means of indentifying the RAF - the beret badges.