SJAR - The Future Of Reporting????

[WorsethanJPA]

Hi peeps,

Lets have another thread to hear the views from the workers.

SJAR is looming large people and already the bosses are unsure what advice to give out, even the roadshow is dreadful and uninformative. Looks like yet again, we have to manually input data which should of been done in the first tranche.

So I ask my fellow shineys, is SJAR the future or yet another cock up????

[SgtScribbly]

JPA Appraisal (which encompasses SJAR and OJAR) looks fine to me, other than the data input of roles and responsibilities, which will be devolved widely

DTM looks correct, JSP looks mostly accurate, user guide almost helpful

it will never catch on

[Crystal_Tips]

Hi peeps,

Lets have another thread to hear the views from the workers.

SJAR is looming large people and already the bosses are unsure what advice to give out, even the roadshow is dreadful and uninformative. Looks like yet again, we have to manually input data which should of been done in the first tranche.

So I ask my fellow shineys, is SJAR the future or yet another cock up????


Oh? I was planning on going to one of these roadshows. Not worth it then? I could always use the time for something else if they are that bad.

[SgtScribbly]

Oh? I was planning on going to one of these roadshows. Not worth it then? I could always use the time for something else if they are that bad.


To be honest youre time would be spent better reading the JSP, DTM and the User Guide, raising a few reports etc.

That said, you should make sure your bosses go so they understand the full impact of what is required

[Fablon biff chit]

you should make sure your bosses go so they understand the full impact of what is required

And we shall call them... SJarhead's!

[PSFbeatch]

And we shall call them... SJarhead's!

my life is filled with dread... after the debacle that is JPA, standby for something to fcuk your career up as well as your pay lol!

[MrCheekyMonkey]

Are they recruiting more scribblies then? They're the only ones who've fooked me over in the past

Personally I think JPA is ace and anything that gets rid of handbrake house is OK in my book.

[PSFbeatch]

Are they recruiting more scribblies then? They're the only ones who've fooked me over in the past

Personally I think JPA is ace and anything that gets rid of handbrake house is OK in my book.

oh... you have no idea! another person who thinks he should have his own personal clerk doing his work only and yesterday.

FYI I work in PSF, Im at a massive unit and look after about 400 people, of my own.

At the moment I have 12 people who are about to deploy imminently, I have about 15 people who have been warned for DWR and are not returning preps which are time sensitive...

then I have a whole load of manual inputs and as you wil know process have been made lengthier by JPA by in some cases up to 9 minutes (just for 1 piece of paper), and a thousand registers to update.

then there are all the pay queries, the stuff that is in pending, filing, answering the phones, deal with customers who come in, doing any other **** that the seiors want me to do, with very liitle guidance, a **** helpline, and no fooking clue to troubleshoot.

Get rid off hndbrake house??? Please hold you breathe until it happens.... which will be never. And have some patience, I mean if an aircraft was brought in with nothing to tell you how to fly it or fix it, you'd expect a few fookin problems wouldnt you!

[monobrow]

awesome bite that one!

Well, at my level, I'll wait to be f*cked over by it (not being a shiney)

Not coming in very soon though. As soon as I'm back from my PODL I'm sure I'll have a nice blue folder to sit through!

[FOMz]

Talk about lighting the blue touch paper!!!!!

WOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHHHHH!!!!

[woollymouse]

All I'm going to say about the SJAR is congratulations to the Army for getting their own way .............again.

[PSFbeatch]

Talk about lighting the blue touch paper!!!!!

WOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHHHHH!!!!

well, its just so frustrating, Im embarrassed by the whole JPA thing and work damn hard, but to hear crud like that is just infuriating, I can wholehearedly understand everyones frustation, ive been JPA's too, ie I have money taken of me that I shouldnt have had, I was due my bonus the month after it ticked over to JPA and had to wait ages for it, but it REALLY isnt our fault! We are working through the work as quick as we can, which isnt any consolation, I know but what more can we do or say???

If you have complaints make them to the JPAC Service Delivery team (assuming that you've exaserbated all other routes first)

[PSFbeatch]

awesome bite that one!

Well, at my level, I'll wait to be f*cked over by it (not being a shiney)

Not coming in very soon though. As soon as I'm back from my PODL I'm sure I'll have a nice blue folder to sit through!

I can confidently say you arent at a unit where PSF are happy to do you over... If you have any problems come find me in your PSF!

[FOMz]

Calm down, calm down! Blimey, all I was commenting on was your bite and you give ME both barrels.

Take a chill pill, the stress will kill you!

[PSFbeatch]

Calm down, calm down! Blimey, all I was commenting on was your bite and you give ME both barrels.

Take a chill pill, the stress will kill you!

sorry fomz i wasnt refering to you i meant the comment mr cheeky monkey had put!

[Shinyscot]

My main job at my unit is appraisals, I have looked at the SJAr and we will have no end of problems. The biggest problem is going to be the data entry, then making sure that everyone is in the correct post. In areas such as Supply or 2nd line maintenance, where personnel are moved around fairly regularly, draft notes will need to be issued from PMA to move them, even if it is to another desk 10 yards away. This will obviously add to a drafters workload, meaning the "open door" facility will once again be limited, meaning that personnel will not be able to speak to their desk as often as they'd like, also meaning that they wil ring PSF, thus adding to the workload. Then we have a training requirement, People still contact PSF with F6000 questions because they do not have the time/too lazy to look for the answers in the F6000B. Why then, do the powers that be think that personnel, especially Techies who have more important things to do, i.e make sure that we have serviceable aircraft, will have the time to learn a completely new writing system? It is just another example of how badly we were mis-sold JPA. Apologies if I have caused offence, I have just had enough!

[monobrow]

I can confidently say you arent at a unit where PSF are happy to do you over... If you have any problems come find me in your PSF!

Sorry, I didn't mean PSF would. I'm just waiting for "the system" a.k.a. JPA to completely re-invent the wheel, lose all my previous assesments just before a promotion board (like a certain overseas list) and become something so "monitored" that once things are said on it, there is no going back (for re-wording an ambiguos statement).

Trust me, since the intro of JPA, I can only sing the praises of the shineys that have to put up with it! But..... we've spent £200 million or something on it so far so they wouldn't bin it to cut their losses. Instead they'll pump another £200 million in to rework it into something manageble.

[exerk]

Sorry, I didn't mean PSF would. I'm just waiting for "the system" a.k.a. JPA to completely re-invent the wheel, lose all my previous assesments just before a promotion board (like a certain overseas list) and become something so "monitored" that once things are said on it, there is no going back (for re-wording an ambiguos statement).

Trust me, since the intro of JPA, I can only sing the praises of the shineys that have to put up with it! But..... we've spent £200 million or something on it so far so they wouldn't bin it to cut their losses. Instead they'll pump another £200 million in to rework it into something manageble.

Ah! The shiney's version of LITS! It's endemic to government that once the spend is started, usually on the 'spend to save' premise, it very quickly becomes politically unacceptable to reverse the situation becasue it is taxpayers money being written off. Unlike industry the government do not have 'cost benefit windows' - just endless pots of money. The problem is usually further exacerbated if manpower reductions are already occurring - do you bring those people back, usually too late as they are redundant, or recruit new people and endure the problems with latency until they are trained and 'on-line'?

Funny thing is though that the bunch I will be ceasing to work for come February is now run by an ex-Army tosser who has brought the ethos with him, and guess what's happening!

[PSFbeatch]

Ah! The shiney's version of LITS! It's endemic to government that once the spend is started, usually on the 'spend to save' premise, it very quickly becomes politically unacceptable to reverse the situation becasue it is taxpayers money being written off. Unlike industry the government do not have 'cost benefit windows' - just endless pots of money. The problem is usually further exacerbated if manpower reductions are already occurring - do you bring those people back, usually too late as they are redundant, or recruit new people and endure the problems with latency until they are trained and 'on-line'?



Funny thing is though that the bunch I will be ceasing to work for come February is now run by an ex-Army tosser who has brought the ethos with him, and guess what's happening!

are youor were you at colt?

[shiny_arse]

My main job at my unit is appraisals, I have looked at the SJAr and we will have no end of problems. The biggest problem is going to be the data entry, then making sure that everyone is in the correct post. In areas such as Supply or 2nd line maintenance, where personnel are moved around fairly regularly, draft notes will need to be issued from PMA to move them, even if it is to another desk 10 yards away. This will obviously add to a drafters workload, meaning the "open door" facility will once again be limited, meaning that personnel will not be able to speak to their desk as often as they'd like, also meaning that they wil ring PSF, thus adding to the workload. Then we have a training requirement, People still contact PSF with F6000 questions because they do not have the time/too lazy to look for the answers in the F6000B. Why then, do the powers that be think that personnel, especially Techies who have more important things to do, i.e make sure that we have serviceable aircraft, will have the time to learn a completely new writing system? It is just another example of how badly we were mis-sold JPA. Apologies if I have caused offence, I have just had enough!

Well said and quite articulate from you for once.

PS - Got the hint as well you miserable git you - it's much more fun speaking to you on the phone !!!!

[WorsethanJPA]

Hi peeps,

Happy New Year to all.
Anyone else heard that SJAR is going to be delayed due to the massive data entry problems encountered with the Gp Capt's appraisals?

[woollymouse]

My heart bleeds for them. If they are having probs with the Gp Capt's who won't be getting SJARs (the OJAR system is already running and most of the data has already been collected) god help them when it comes to the SAC's and Cpls.

[True Blue Jack]

OK. So it was my first day back at the office today. "Welcome back" says the adj, "Get to grips with JPA Appraisals - you're giving a brief to the sqn straight after Easter."

So I have spent the whole day wading through JSP757, the death-by-powerpoint and the e-learning package before having a go at raising a Sqn Ldr OJAR on posting of 1st RO.

I'm interested in finding out what other shineys and anyone else who cares think about JPA Appraisals. What's good and bad? What will be easier and harder? What pitfalls have people found already and how do you plan to work around them?

The floor is open . . .

[PSFbeatch]

OK. So it was my first day back at the office today. "Welcome back" says the adj, "Get to grips with JPA Appraisals - you're giving a brief to the sqn straight after Easter."

So I have spent the whole day wading through JSP757, the death-by-powerpoint and the e-learning package before having a go at raising a Sqn Ldr OJAR on posting of 1st RO.

I'm interested in finding out what other shineys and anyone else who cares think about JPA Appraisals. What's good and bad? What will be easier and harder? What pitfalls have people found already and how do you plan to work around them?

The floor is open . . .

i think its great...nuff said

[Humble Scribe]

I'm interested in finding out what other shineys and anyone else who cares think about JPA Appraisals. What's good and bad? What will be easier and harder? What pitfalls have people found already and how do you plan to work around them?

The floor is open . . .

I have attended 1 brief and completed the E-Learning package, so by no means an expert but, I must say that my first impressions were good; I like the way it can be passed between subject & RO's (and back) via workflow, I like the fact that there's only 2 narratives to complete as 1st RO also there will be none of the dreaded hastening or losing it in in-trays (I'm sure there'll be some excuses though) however, creation of these reports, at least initially, is going to be an extremely time consuming and tedious task as is the competence profile.

The grading scores will be interesting too. Whilst Orifices & airmen have traditionally had different alpha & numerical scoring systems we will now all be assessed like an old style school report (A-, B+ etc). This will allow a larger range of marks as with the F6442 and whilst initially may reduce over assessment, the creep will soon return.

There will be (sorry, there already has been) loads of teething problems and loads of moans & groans about the system but its going to happen and we might as well get used to it. If it stops the constant tracking/hastening of reports that goes on at the moment thats got to be a good thing but will the time spent raising the reports in the first place outweigh the time saved in tracking/hastening etc?

I think we've only raised 1 report so far so it's too early to let you know of any workrounds/pitfalls etc. I hope however that, like with the intro of JPA, we speak to each other unit to unit and help each other out as a TG otherwise we could be in for some more sledging in these pages!

[tommo9999]

I'm off to the briefing in a couple of hours - I'll let you know how it went!!

[shiny_arse]

At the end of the day I suppose we have to look at the benefits of the system as like it or not it is coming on fast.

So the plus side has to be the two simple facts that are the bane of our lives.

a) No more poxy disks corrupting just as you hit the final print button and you then spend the next 3 weeks retyping and chasing everyone for their signatures.

b) Being able to track which 2nd/3rd RO has the appraisal left lying around on their desks whilst they are bitching at you that they are fed up with the amount of hastening reminders they are receiving from Manservs.

No doubt whatsoever that the first couple of months on-line are going to be a complete cluster, but surely the pros outweigh the current cons.

[tommo9999]

Just had the brief and I'm genuinely encouraged by what I heard. Yes, a fair bit of initial work, but then, lots easier. Bring it on.

[True Blue Jack]

Happy with that. It's just about what I was thinking. The only issue I have with it is the non-standard appraisal report (NSAR), and that's only because my boss wants it yesterday and the generic version isn't available yet.

Lots of work initially, but we should start to see the benefits fairly quickly.

Just one thing. At my unit we are not doing the appraisal workflow as advised in the brief/e-learning but putting in the whole thing from the start. Also we are getting the appraisal returned to us for quality control between each stage, so it goes:

Admin - 1st RO - Admin - Subject - Admin - 2nd RO - (Admin - 3rd RO) - Approver.

I've got mixed feelings about doing it this way. What are other units doing?

[Humble Scribe]

Admin - 1st RO - Admin - Subject - Admin - 2nd RO - (Admin - 3rd RO) - Approver.

I've got mixed feelings about doing it this way. What are other units doing?

Nothing like making work for yourselves! WHY?

[Realist78]

Nothing like making work for yourselves! WHY?

Have to agree on this point. The quality side should be done by the line management. Personally, I proof read every 6000 on the shift, a fresh set of eyes works wonders, I think if you are on a sizeable section, you may overburden yourself TBJ. All depends on whether or not you're happy doing it.:PDT_Xtremez_21:

[True Blue Jack]

Nothing like making work for yourselves! WHY?

Not my idea, it came from the adj, who does have a point - at least in our case. The fact is that the vast majority of appraisals on my sqn are written by TG1/2 on TG1/2. If we didn't remind them regularly then appraisals would get stuck in the back of a drawer and forgotten about; making them electronic may make them easier to forget about. It's not the guys' fault, the nature of our job means that we are constantly reacting to "urgent operational requirements".

Also, and I know I'm going to upset people saying this, but there are very few people outside the shiney world who are any good at appraisal writing (trust me I have read 1000s of the bu99ers over the years). One of the lads came back from Det a couple of weeks ago proudly carrying about 20 completed appraisals. The next guy to go out took every single one of them back; they all had one RO FUBAR or another.

So while I agree we are making work for ourselves, and certainly more so than is necessary, the product should be timely, well-written appraisals. Anyway, that's why I posted on this thread, I wanted to get an outside perspective before I go back to my adj and say we are over-engineering the problem.

[Humble Scribe]

So it's a Sqn decision rather than a Stn one! Next, you'll be writing the bloody things for the Engineers. I think I'd take advice from the experts in PMA7 on this one (or whatever they're called today). With the diminishing responsibilities PMA are taking with SJAR's now are they still going to conduct management /report copying checks etc on SJAR's or accept them in whatever state they arrive? If that is the case, you'll be doing your guys a favour by ensuring that they are completed competently and expeditiously; OK if you've got the time for it.

are very few people outside the shiney world who are any good at appraisal writing

light touchpaper stand back for virtual ear-bashing!!!

[KingGuin]

I can confidently say you arent at a unit where PSF are happy to do you over... If you have any problems come find me in your PSF!

Since I have never knowingly been at or worked in a PSF that did anyone over I am curious to know if I should ammend my troops TORs to read "and do the customer over". If it makes our customers feel more wanted then I am all in favour.............your thoughts appreciated!

[KingGuin]

So it's a Sqn decision rather than a Stn one! Next, you'll be writing the bloody things for the Engineers. I think I'd take advice from the experts in PMA7 on this one (or whatever they're called today). With the diminishing responsibilities PMA are taking with SJAR's now are they still going to conduct management /report copying checks etc on SJAR's or accept them in whatever state they arrive? If that is the case, you'll be doing your guys a favour by ensuring that they are completed competently and expeditiously; OK if you've got the time for it.



light touchpaper stand back for virtual ear-bashing!!!

I am led to believe the decision to include Admin is from a higher authority. Quite simply individuals, still not used to the concept that they have to do much of their own admin, will (allegedly) not process SJARs in a timely and orderly fashion. However if we are involved somewhere in the process then it is presumed we will take ownership and hasten/chivy accordingly. Having said that I agree with Tommo, I think it will work well when it eventually kicks in.

[True Blue Jack]

I am led to believe the decision to include Admin is from a higher authority. Quite simply individuals, still not used to the concept that they have to do much of their own admin, will (allegedly) not process SJARs in a timely and orderly fashion. However if we are involved somewhere in the process then it is presumed we will take ownership and hasten/chivy accordingly. Having said that I agree with Tommo, I think it will work well when it eventually kicks in.

According to the powerpoint pres and the e-learning (I've had no external input apart from this thread) admin start and end the SJAR process. We've (note: not I've) gone that bit further and decided to put ourselves between every stage of the process. It is creating work for ourselves in the short term, but I have about a dozen Fs6000 sat on my desk that need tidying up/re-writing for one reason or another, e.g., 3RO on a Spec Rec written by a sqn ldr. If I had seen them after the 1RO had done but before they had gone onto 2RO I could have dealt with several errors BEFORE the appraisals were overdue.

[PSFbeatch]

Since I have never knowingly been at or worked in a PSF that did anyone over I am curious to know if I should ammend my troops TORs to read "and do the customer over". If it makes our customers feel more wanted then I am all in favour.............your thoughts appreciated!

monobrow was at my last unit so and I know they work blooming hard at theat particular unit? which is what I said? no mention of putting it in TOR's ?

[shiny_arse]

According to the powerpoint pres and the e-learning (I've had no external input apart from this thread) admin start and end the SJAR process. We've (note: not I've) gone that bit further and decided to put ourselves between every stage of the process. It is creating work for ourselves in the short term, but I have about a dozen Fs6000 sat on my desk that need tidying up/re-writing for one reason or another, e.g., 3RO on a Spec Rec written by a sqn ldr. If I had seen them after the 1RO had done but before they had gone onto 2RO I could have dealt with several errors BEFORE the appraisals were overdue.

Going out on a bit of a limb here, but at what point do the RO's themselves take a bit of responsibility for what they are producing. Time and time again I have noted that when it is their own report, they scream when the reports is delayed in their bosses in-tray and then whinge almightily because the narrative they received is not up to their oh so important standards.

However, when it comes to writing up their troops F6000's lo and behold, having to chase them continuously because they are gathering dust, listening to the usual excuses of being extremely busy and there is so many reports to complete and on top of that the grammar and spelling of their finished appraisal is atrocious.

I agree with you TBJ that it is our professional courtesy to be checking and double checking the output from our RO's, but hell we can't be wiping their asses for them all the time. Accountability has to lie somewhere and JO's who quite frankly can't be arrsed with their own staff whilst they scramble up the slope themselves need to have a damned good hard look in the mirror.

Anyone got any suggestion on how our commissioned brethren can actually improve their own standards bar them actually reading the documentation that is provided to them explaining what is expected?

[True Blue Jack]

I would love to live in the happy Utopia where we do not get involved in any appraisals but our own. It's what seems to be planned with JPA appraisals and to a certain extent is how the Civil Service works - the onus is on the individual to get the appraisal completed and their annual bonus depends on the appraisal being completed satisfactorily and on time.

We just don't seem to have that mindset and it comes from the top down. A few years back, I sent out a sheaf of written hasteners for appraisals - one of them was for a wg cdr and was sat untouched on his 1RO's desk 3 months after the due date. The Gp Capt in question made it very clear that it was not my place as a cpl to tell him what was and was not important/urgent.

Less than a week after that interview sans coffee, the Gp Capt got a phone call from the desk officer. "I need that appraisal faxed to me before the end of today or Wg Cdr XXX will not be considered by the promotion board." Guess who had to type the whole thing? Guess who was made to look a complete cnut because it should not have been allowed to be so overdue? You got it. Li'l ol' me.

The fact is that appraisals were never a top priority for subjects or ROs when we had plenty of bodies and the only place we went on holiday was Darn Sarf (Generalisation, I know). The FSs on the sqns I administer are very proactive about appraisals, but they can only fit so many hours into the day - and their first priority will always be the aircraft, as it should be.

[KingGuin]

monobrow was at my last unit so and I know they work blooming hard at theat particular unit? which is what I said? no mention of putting it in TOR's ?

I am perfectly aware you made no mention of including it in TORs, my remark was sarcastic. In light of that perhaps I should include something in regard to my troops having a sense of humour?

[Realist78]

Not my idea, it came from the adj, who does have a point - at least in our case. The fact is that the vast majority of appraisals on my sqn are written by TG1/2 on TG1/2. If we didn't remind them regularly then appraisals would get stuck in the back of a drawer and forgotten about; making them electronic may make them easier to forget about. It's not the guys' fault, the nature of our job means that we are constantly reacting to "urgent operational requirements".

Also, and I know I'm going to upset people saying this, but there are very few people outside the shiney world who are any good at appraisal writing (trust me I have read 1000s of the bu99ers over the years). One of the lads came back from Det a couple of weeks ago proudly carrying about 20 completed appraisals. The next guy to go out took every single one of them back; they all had one RO FUBAR or another.

So while I agree we are making work for ourselves, and certainly more so than is necessary, the product should be timely, well-written appraisals. Anyway, that's why I posted on this thread, I wanted to get an outside perspective before I go back to my adj and say we are over-engineering the problem.

How nice to be one of the few then. Bit of a broadbrush statement though. However, I agree that some people are appalling at writing appraisals but bleat like fcuk when their own is written in the same style. With the SAC/JT 6000s this year I sent out my own guide with tips like "If you're in any doubt as to the standard required, look at your most recent one etc". I have to say that the standard this year has seen a marked improvement. :PDT_Xtremez_26:

[Gillo]

Bloke who gave brief was a used cae salesman who sold us all down the river so army could report on fitness. He even thought 6442 was a better system, so its back to A Stars and sitting in cold baths of baked beans if you want promotion. He even threatened that pay adavancement no longer automatic unless you lick:PDT_Xtremez_14: bosses arse in future

[SgtScribbly]

He even threatened that pay adavancement no longer automatic unless you lick:PDT_Xtremez_14: bosses arse in future

derrrrrrrrrrrrr, as its not now Gillo. You are on performance related pay, therefore if you dont perform to an acceptable standard (ie you get at least a 2 on your annual report) you will not get your annual increment.

the general lack of knowledge about things like this within the RAF astounds me you know.

[monobrow]

Not to mention the upper echelons of the smally ranks not getting increments unless a rec or higher is given???

(??? denotes never happened to me, but heard people kick off at their 1st RO for it)