View Full Version : God......... where is he ???
FairyGoodGuy
11-09-2006, 23:02
How can there be a god with all the terrible things that are happening in this world ??? The recent Hunter Crash and the 15 year old boy shot dead in Moss Side, is he real or just a very big hoax ????
Buphoonery
11-09-2006, 23:14
God is a figment of your imagination, the bible - the greatest fairy story ever written - it's people of all faiths just wanting to cling onto the notion that there is somewhere better once you fall off your perch - you are all worm food - unless you get torched........simple as that. Although if you can prove that he exists I'm open to change.
Talk Wrench
11-09-2006, 23:16
Perhaps you could ask all of these questions at your stations "understanding islam" training days which are, according to sources on this site, very popular.
TW
katinthehat
11-09-2006, 23:20
Dont believe in God per se - that big bearded bloke that sits on a cloud.... nah, not for me.
I do believe there is a higher being - whether that be the Paganistic mother god type of thing or aliens who have put us on here as an experiment - who can say.
I believe in a spiritualist form of "after life", not heaven & hell - we make those ourselves.
We are an energy field, as humans, and when we die, that energy cannot just dispate can it? it has to go somewhere.... where? who knows!
Just my thoughts, Im married to a Jedi so what do you expect???????
Personally speaking I can't see there being any sort of god, it's a myth perpetuated by the various churchs so they can hold onto their wealth/power. Inclined to agree with Buphoonery here once you kark it thats it!
katinthehat
11-09-2006, 23:28
Anyhow - religion is the cause of the majority - if not all - of the major wars in the worlds history.
However, one point I have made to people I know and they agreed - it doesnt matter whether you are agnostic, catholic, muslim, or atheist - in times of great need, we all pray to something - maybe a pint , but to something all the same. Is that because we are indoctrinated from an early age? Or just a case of clutching at straws???
Buphoonery
11-09-2006, 23:38
Were all those pints Holy? - still don't believe though - had a god awful headache though
Organized churches are nothing but corporations now. Money, money, money. Picking the pockets of little old ladies. I hope that we exist after this life, but if we don't, I'll never know will I? Maybe I could make an appearance on Most Haunted! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
He is converting to Islam so that he gets better benefits
grumpy sumpy
12-09-2006, 00:18
I am not an atheist but hate organised religion.
Wandering around the basilicas in Rome, draped in gold and jewels raped and pillaged from South America hammered it home to me how corrupt and hypocritical mans barstuardisation of religion can be.
Is there a God? I hope so but if he really is the type of bloke that would banish me to hell for not worshiping him every Sunday, then I would rather take my chances.
Talk Wrench
12-09-2006, 00:43
A mate of mine who was born into an Islamic family and as a briton, was taught islam, said these words after his sister was caught up in the 7/7 bombings.
" Those f@cking idiot's ain't islamic, I should f@ckin know, I am British, but those cnuts won't let me be. Anyway, religion is for people who have something missing in their lives. A bit like drug users take drugs cos it makes 'em feel good. What the f@ck do they think they will achieve? absolutely f@ck all. They nearly killed my sister. that's not f@ckin islam. They should all just f@ck off and leave us alone, yes I like my whiskey and smokes, I watch porn and my girlfriend is American. I am British and f@cking proud, but I won't eat bacon cos it tastes like sh1t, but that's a personal choice, not cos of islam, maybe it's because it was the way i was brought up. The same way you don't like tripe and onions."
I hold the utmost respect for my mate. A true Brit and muslim, with a realistic attitude towards life and religion.
And his use of the F word? Well he's from E17
TW
I'm no great believer in God, but there's plenty of people out there who are and they deserve a bit of respect, as long as they aint the nutter type who have God telling them what to do that is.
As for organised churches being corporations, they always have been. I take it your mainly talking about certain branches of the Christian Church, history shows that they seem to be a bit more 'whats in it for me' than most other religions. That said the Church provides many (including non-believers) with comfort and a sense of community. We may not go there every day, but we christen our children, tie the knot and say farewell to those we've lost under the roof of Church and Chaple.
The great schism of 1054 saw the division of Chalcedonian Christianity into Western Catholisism and Eastern Orthodoxy. 50 years later Pope Urban II sought to reunite the two by calling for the First Crusade, the first big ding-dong between Christianity and Islam. For good measure, on their way through Europe the Crusaders also prosecuted the Jews, putting many to the sword. The carnage, bloodshed and torture continued for 200 years, and still has repercusions today. The one, very sad point is that the God on both sides is the same bloke, and the majority of the protagonists were fighting for land or loot, with religion being used as the excuse.
I'ts a great shame that the Jewish, Chrisian and Muslim communities can't celebrate their similarities in sharing the same god; then again it's an even bigger shame that they can't even tolerate the many differing factions within each religion.
JAFAD666
12-09-2006, 09:16
I found Jesus last week.
Down the back of the settee with a couple of pound coins.
Result !
(I suddenly feel like Salman Rushdie)
Scaley brat
12-09-2006, 10:02
I found Jesus last week.
Down the back of the settee with a couple of pound coins.
Result !
(I suddenly feel like Salman Rushdie)
Stone the heretic, follow the gourd :p
:PDT_Xtremez_28:
I believe in a destiny through choice, when confronted with a decision you weigh up the pros and cons, the right and wrong and it is this sense or value of good and bad that is Gods influence upon you.
As a Jew - I'm one of the chosen people, not chosen for favour or divine access or wisdom but to honour my ancestors covenant of faith and act as a beacon of hope, charity and resolve in the face of sin and adversity. I've made many personal and professional sacrifices based on doing the right thing as defined by the teachings of my faith.
Without such faith then I would be no better than an animal, born to give into my base instincts and drives for my own personal pleasure.
In truth we all observe the teachings of the book as the very foundation of civil law is based upon the 10 commandments.
As for the book itself - yes it is great fiction if all you do is read and memorise rote. it is the same as saying 'Moby Dick' is about a geezer trying to kill a whale! The real story and message is in the subtext and its the interpretation of this that leads to all the conflict.
gemarriott
18-09-2006, 09:44
Perhaps you could ask all of these questions at your stations "understanding islam" training days which are, according to sources on this site, very popular.
TW
Strikes me the Panzer Pope has the inside line on understanding Islam. that and that old emporer guy who said "slam brings nothing but evil"
gemarriott
18-09-2006, 09:56
I go to church for hatching, matching and despatching. Won't go to a remembrance service in a church since attending one in 1986 held by a CND priest who made us all out to be murderers. I go to the parades and wait outside the church now.
I think religion or belief in god is a probably a good thing I think organised religion is a crock of sh1t, be it christian, muslim, hindu or jew they are all nothing but global organisations now and ,ust for finance and power has overcomes the duties of car and compassion.
Me? I'll snuff it and then I'll feed a few worms. If there is anything beyond I'll find out when I get there.
It seems to me that regardless of what God you believe in its your faith that matters, this woman was selfless to the extreme and put aside religious differences just to save her fellow man....I'm not at all religious (and not catholic) but can appreciate what this human being did in not turning her back on another faith. May HER God keep her and treasure her for eternity. I hope, if ever needed, that there is someone like her out there who would do the same for me regardless of my faith and my sins..... AZ
BUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) - A Hungarian nun who helped save the lives of dozens of Jews during World War II was beatified Sunday in a Mass attended by thousands.
Sara Salkahazi was killed by the Arrow Cross - the Hungarian allies of the Nazis - on Dec. 27, 1944, for hiding Jews in a Budapest building used by her religious order, the Sisters of Social Service.
The order is credited with saving the lives of some 1,000 Jews during the Holocaust; about 100 were aided by Salkahazi herself.
Her beatification proclamation, issued by Pope Benedict XVI, was read out by Cardinal Peter Erdo, Hungary's Primate and Archbishop of Esztergom-Budapest, during a Mass outside St. Stephen's Basilica.
http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/thumbnails//HUNGARY_BEATIFICATION.sff_BUD106_20060917080417.jp g (http://apnews.myway.com/image/20060917/HUNGARY_BEATIFICATION.sff_BUD106_20060917080417.ht ml?date=20060918&docid=D8K7261G0)(AP) Hungarian priests pray in front of a giant picture showing Hungarian nun Sara Salkahazi
Full Image (http://apnews.myway.com/image/20060917/HUNGARY_BEATIFICATION.sff_BUD106_20060917080417.ht ml?date=20060918&docid=D8K7261G0)
"She was willing to assume risks for the persecuted ... in days of great fear," Erdo said. "Her martyrdom is still topical ... and presents the foundations of our humanity "
Salkahazi was taken along with several other occupants of the home and shot, their bodies falling into the Danube River and never recovered. Details of her death were revealed only in the 1967 trial of some Arrow Cross henchmen.
The beatification was the first in Hungary since 1083, when Hungary's first king, St. Stephen, was beatified along with his son, St. Imre, and St. Gellert, an Italian bishop who had a key role in converting Hungarians to Christianity.
Salkahazi's deeds were recognized in 1972 by Yad Vashem, Israel's Holocaust memorial, at the behest of the daughter of one of the Jewish women killed with her.
Some 550,000 Jews and 50,000 Roma died during the Holocaust in Hungary. Historians say one-third of all the victims killed by the Nazis in the Auschwitz concentration camp were Hungarian.
http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/thumbnails//HUNGARY_BEATIFICATION.sff_BUD107_20060917080327.jp g (http://apnews.myway.com/image/20060917/HUNGARY_BEATIFICATION.sff_BUD107_20060917080327.ht ml?date=20060918&docid=D8K7261G0)(AP) An undated black-and-white photo handed out by the Hungarian Catholic Church showing Sara...
Full Image (http://apnews.myway.com/image/20060917/HUNGARY_BEATIFICATION.sff_BUD107_20060917080327.ht ml?date=20060918&docid=D8K7261G0)
People beatified by the Roman Catholic Church are given the title of "Blessed" and are considered to be able to intercede on behalf of those who pray in their name. Beatification is sometimes the first step to sainthood.
Salkahazi was born May 11, 1899, into a middle-class family in the city of Kassa at the time in Hungary but now known as Kosice and part of Slovakia.
She was in her late 20s when she discovered her religious calling. Earlier, she had been engaged to marry and worked as a bookbinder, journalist and newspaper editor.
She is the first Hungarian to be beatified who is not royalty or a member of the aristocracy.
"I know from personal experience ... how dangerous and heroic it was in those times to help Jews and save them from death," Rabbi Jozsef Schweitzer said during the Mass. "Originating in her faith, she kept the commandment of love until death." Changes introduced by Pope Benedict XVI again allow beatification rites to be held around the world, instead of just in the Vatican, as was the norm for centuries.
Scaley brat
18-09-2006, 11:27
I have had a thought I would like to share, Men and Women are the 2 worst behaved alien races in this galaxy. The rest of them got a little p!ssed off with our behaviour and our punishment was to be dumped us out on the edge of a spiral arm, genetically engineered to require each other for procreation.
On the other hand, watching Battlestar Galactica I now think we may be the 13th colony of humans and those b@stards on Galactica are leading the bloody Cylons straight to us !!!
I've been told I watch to much TV. What do you think ?? :D
On a serious note though Jews, Christians and Muslims share a lot of holy places and a lot of beliefs. Do extremist's feel threatened by the similarities of the other religions ? I feel perhaps it should lead more towards an attitude of brotherhood, but I am probably being naiive.
Now that they have firebombed churches in the UK, surely it is time for a measured response. Find all those Muslims who felt the need to shout at the worshippers on Sunday and deport them to the Sharia ruled nation of their choice.
Their abuse is something which would never have been tolerated had Christians been shouting at Muslims outside a Mosque. Time for a little fair play from our leaders to their voters !
TheHogwartsBEngO
18-09-2006, 11:39
God is a figment of your imagination, the bible - the greatest fairy story ever written - it's people of all faiths just wanting to cling onto the notion that there is somewhere better once you fall off your perch - you are all worm food - unless you get torched........simple as that. Although if you can prove that he exists I'm open to change.
God would refuse to prove that he exists because proof defies faith and without faith, He is nothing.
Vim_Fuego
18-09-2006, 11:57
God would refuse to prove that he exists because proof defies faith and without faith, He is nothing.
How convenient.....
Scaley brat
18-09-2006, 12:52
Isn't it a shame that the most religious peole often seem to be the most insecure. Faith is fine, until it becomes a crutch. Still at least people have finally got the cross message.
I mean the REAL Bill Hicks on his Relentless tour
"do think Jesus he ever wants to see another f@cking cross. That's like going up to Jackie Kennedy with a sniper rifle pendant.....
Bill Hicks also said that these old religions are no longer relevant in the modern world and he was absolutely right. It's time to dismantle the churches and mosques and temples they are no longer needed. The Bible says God is everywhere. He's inside us, in the air around us and inside everything we see. He was probably driven outside by the funeral dirge that is hymn's ancient and modern.
Then why lock yourself into a musty old building, listening to some preacher of whatever faith week in week out. Most of which are bloody hypocrites. The church is hardly a safe haven for children anymore is it !
What the hell makes people want to do that ?
If they need a crutch, fine, they can keep it. I just wish they'd quit trying to make me feel guilty for not following as blindly as them because they are scared think for themselves and make their own choices. After all then they would only have themselves to blame for every bad choice they made.
enginesuck
18-09-2006, 19:13
The entire notion of God Jesus and the holy ghost is all a load of crap.
If im wrong..... Forgive Me
Isn't it a shame that the most religious peole often seem to be the most insecure. Faith is fine, until it becomes a crutch. Still at least people have finally got the cross message.
Bill Hicks also said that these old religions are no longer relevant in the modern world and he was absolutely right. It's time to dismantle the churches and mosques and temples they are no longer needed. The Bible says God is everywhere. He's inside us, in the air around us and inside everything we see. He was probably driven outside by the funeral dirge that is hymn's ancient and modern.
Then why lock yourself into a musty old building, listening to some preacher of whatever faith week in week out. Most of which are bloody hypocrites. The church is hardly a safe haven for children anymore is it !
What the hell makes people want to do that ?
If they need a crutch, fine, they can keep it. I just wish they'd quit trying to make me feel guilty for not following as blindly as them because they are scared think for themselves and make their own choices. After all then they would only have themselves to blame for every bad choice they made.
Firstly faith is fine as a crutch. When a series of events robs you of the strength to continue on the right path the teachings of the faith and the hope they provide can enable someone to carry on.
Secondly I wouldn't consider it wise to use Bill Hicks as a guide to the rights and wrongs of the world.
And finally faith isn't a cop out to blame your problems on some higher power (unless you actually hear god speak to you, in which case you're not religous - you're crazy) Faith can be a burden in some respects as it adds an extra variable into the decision making process and the blame as you put it falls squarely on the person making the decision as God allows free will and choice and it is how you choose and bear the consequences of your decisions that counts in Gods eyes.
And I apologise if you feel guilty or uneasy about your lack of faith but just relax as it is easier to live a life unjudged then one of faith - and you'll probably live longer for it.
chumpzilla
08-03-2008, 00:32
believing in God gives people something to hang onto when times are tough. Deal with it.
Poo happens to everyone, this is not a utopia we are living in it is a test.
Wow!:PDT_Xtremez_06:
Well done that has to be some sort of thread resurrecting (resurrecting get it in the god forum!) record!!!:PDT_Xtremez_42:
rugby then work
08-03-2008, 01:07
serves us right for not closing the thread!!
It is nearly easter so we may find more threads rising from the dead.
serves us right for not closing the thread!!
It is nearly easter so we may find more threads rising from the dead.
Another cross to bare for the Mods :PDT_Xtremez_42:
serves us right for not closing the thread!!
It is nearly easter so we may find more threads rising from the dead.
Mods on the ball as always. Can't beat a bit of necroposting :PDT_Xtremez_31:
Hang on, Guys & Gals.
Islam had the Prophet Mohamed. Christianity had Jesus (Don't ask me for any others except, perhaps Osiris). All these had something to say about the way life should be conducted (be kind to your parents, don't get too violent, etc).. These precepts are part of our culture and still as good & right today as they were when written WHETHER YOU 'BELIEVE' IN A GOD OR NOT.
A great many of the stories in the Bible and other places have common themes, Mary & Jesus, Isis & Horus, the parting of the Red Sea etc.. The snag is that in order to 'control' a growing populace, the Church had 'worthy men' pontificating and interpretting the Gospels and the Holy Books in general if only because phylosophy wasn't inveted 'till later and it's hard to explain difficult concepts to a peasant. They there but men and they may have been wrong sometimes.
I was rasied as a CofE and it's taken me 50 odd years to realise that there might be something in it. I think it may be time to get back to basics and realise that the 10 commandments and other teaching or precepts may be right.
They are simply a code for Life.
:PDT_Xtremez_42:
Hang on, Guys & Gals.
Islam had the Prophet Mohamed. Christianity had Jesus (Don't ask me for any others except, perhaps Osiris). All these had something to say about the way life should be conducted (be kind to your parents, don't get too violent, etc).. These precepts are part of our culture and still as good & right today as they were when written WHETHER YOU 'BELIEVE' IN A GOD OR NOT.
A great many of the stories in the Bible and other places have common themes, Mary & Jesus, Isis & Horus, the parting of the Red Sea etc.. The snag is that in order to 'control' a growing populace, the Church had 'worthy men' pontificating and interpretting the Gospels and the Holy Books in general if only because phylosophy wasn't inveted 'till later and it's hard to explain difficult concepts to a peasant. They there but men and they may have been wrong sometimes.
I was rasied as a CofE and it's taken me 50 odd years to realise that there might be something in it. I think it may be time to get back to basics and realise that the 10 commandments and other teaching or precepts may be right.
They are simply a code for Life.
:PDT_Xtremez_42:
All of which were around long before any of the good books. Are you saying that yourself or other people would be less moral without a book of fables to fall back on. Also according to the gospel of Judas (yes there is one) people are told not to follow the god of the old testament as it is the emanation of a sick mind.
And another thing if christmas and easter are so important; Why are the celebrated at the wrong times of the year handily to co-incide with already existing pagan festivals. They didn't even bother to change the name of Easter which was the pagan festival of Eoaster whose symbols happened to be bunny rabbits, chicks and eggs (ring any bells with modern day celebrations).
All religion is a bad thing and has been used to excuse the worst atrocities ever to be carried out by man and to maintain the worst injustices against mankind in the name of a so called benevolent being.
Bunch of arrse the lot of it.
Bluntend
08-03-2008, 07:04
Ok Plumber - take a few deep breaths and step away from the keyboard...
:raf:
Not a chance, I'm on my first glass of wine, I only get more argumentative from here on in.
Bluntend
08-03-2008, 08:50
Not a chance, I'm on my first glass of wine, I only get more argumentative from here on in.
You surprise me. Listen, if you're going to pick a fight with the big guy (and I mean God not Ex Bay), I wouldn't go out into the back yard if it looks stormy alright?
sausage2
08-03-2008, 09:31
And another thing if christmas and easter are so important; .Behave Plumber, Christmas is important, cos I get to have prezzies. I love christmas me, even more than I love leaks, and lamb fillets, and I love them loads.
Scaley brat
08-03-2008, 09:35
Another cross to bare for the Mods :PDT_Xtremez_42:
So long as no one gets crucified it should be okay.
Still, now it's open we can Bunny on about things we lent at Christmas and as they preach "each to his own" I shall stay in bed and have a little Palm sunday !
Dave-exfairy
08-03-2008, 10:07
At my last posting the lads used to talk about the previous incumbent of my post, apparently he was into religion in a big way. One of his thinkings was that dinosaur bones were put on this earth by the devil, now by any stretch of the imagination thats pretty messed up. Some of the other things were weird as well, but after 7 years i've forgotton them.
Me, well i'm agnostic.
DrunkenMonki
08-03-2008, 10:41
Religion was invented to calm peoples fears about things they didn't understand, earthquakes, lightning, floods and Michael Barrymore. Now that we understand these things, it seems pretty daft to continue believing theres some devine power behind it all. We're meat powered by electrical pulses, turn off those pulses and theres nothing left.
On the plus side, so long as there is religion, there is war. Keeps me in a job!
sausage2
08-03-2008, 10:47
On the plus side, so long as there is religion, there is war. And Christmas. I love chrimbo me.
You surprise me. Listen, if you're going to pick a fight with the big guy (and I mean God not Ex Bay), I wouldn't go out into the back yard if it looks stormy alright?
Oh, I am so disappointed. . . . . . . . .
Plumber:
All of which were around long before any of the good books. Are you saying that yourself or other people would be less moral without a book of fables to fall back on. Also according to the gospel of Judas (yes there is one) people are told not to follow the god of the old testament as it is the emanation of a sick mind.
And another thing if christmas and easter are so important; Why are the celebrated at the wrong times of the year handily to co-incide with already existing pagan festivals. They didn't even bother to change the name of Easter which was the pagan festival of Eoaster whose symbols happened to be bunny rabbits, chicks and eggs (ring any bells with modern day celebrations).
All religion is a bad thing and has been used to excuse the worst atrocities ever to be carried out by man and to maintain the worst injustices against mankind in the name of a so called benevolent being.
OK, so religion has (and probably will be) used as an excuse in War, but if it wasn't that it would be something like "because Lue has told me" (substitute any deity of choice).
The decision to have Easter the way it's calculated was the result of another bl**dy Committee, due to the differences in theology between the Churches of Rome and that of Constantinople. The schisms between various theorists and "wings" have all too often obscured the basic teachings. It's not as if this is new; look at Islam (not too closely!). Sunni & Shia each of whom is at odds with the other (a bit like Catholics & Protestants a while ago).
But go back to the basics and one has a code for life. And others may well respect you for it: It matter not where it came from.
:PDT_Xtremez_14:
Bluntend
08-03-2008, 21:26
But go back to the basics and one has a code for life. And others may well respect you for it: It matter not where it came from.
That's all very well and good, until you look back to times and places before the arrival of Christianity and Christian missionaries. Many people described as 'savages' had a perfectly functional code for life, they had social cohesion, respected their elders, cared for their young etc. Granted, they went to war occasionally, but 2000 years of Christianity and the 'code for life' that is the bible hasn’t stopped us going to war either. Along with spreading the good news, missionaries also spread infectious and potentially deadly diseases. But, they were encouraging these savages to give up their heathen ways and turn to a new way, a good way, right? And how did they do this? By worshiping under a cross depicting one of the cruellest and most brutal instruments of torture devised by man and carrying out ritual ceremonies representing cannibalism and the eating of Christ’s body and the drinking of his blood. Remind me again, who were the savages?
Wing boy
08-03-2008, 21:29
That's all very well and good, until you look back to times and places before the arrival of Christianity and Christian missionaries. Many people described as 'savages' had a perfectly functional code for life, they had social cohesion, respected their elders, cared for their young etc. Granted, they went to war occasionally, but 2000 years of Christianity and the 'code for life' that is the bible hasn’t stopped us going to war either. Along with spreading the good news, missionaries also spread infectious and potentially deadly diseases. But, they were encouraging these savages to give up their heathen ways and turn to a new way, a good way, right? And how did they do this? By worshiping under a cross depicting one of the cruellest and most brutal instruments of torture devised by man and carrying out ritual ceremonies representing cannibalism and the eating of Christ’s body and the drinking of his blood. Remind me again, who were the savages?
As Bill Hicks once said. "why on earth do Christians wear Crucifixes? Do you really think that if and when Christ comes back the first thing he wants to see is a ****ing Crucifix?"
Bluntend
08-03-2008, 21:35
As Bill Hicks once said. "why on earth do Christians wear Crucifixes? Do you really think that if and when Christ comes back the first thing he wants to see is a ****ing Crucifix?"
Hey, I don't think he'll be coming back. His old man created the entire universe - there's got to be a better planet out there than this one for sure!?
Shugster
08-03-2008, 22:30
The thing that p1sses me off the most is how all the bad stuff like Dunblane, Hungerford, etc etc are all written off under the, "Mysterious ways", clause!
God loves you really!
Yeah right!:PDT_Xtremez_32:
Harry B'Stard
08-03-2008, 23:25
Religion is a funny thing.
Funny weird, not funny Ha Ha!
I think we have to believe in something, but is that something in complete control? God may have started it all (by kicking off the big bang) but is he now just an outside observer? Did he start an experiment and now all he can do is to watch what happens?
Or does he have a direct influence on what happens?
I still believe that something is out there and that you will find the answer when you die and move onto the next place (whether that is Heaven, Valhalla, Hell, Paradise). But as long as you treat others as you would wish to be treated then you'll get the best of what's on the other side.
Suppose I'd better stop being a B'stard then!:PDT_Xtremez_30:
HTB
Scaley brat
09-03-2008, 00:44
And Christmas. I love chrimbo me.
That's when you get your second shag of the year isn't it ? :PDT_Xtremez_31:
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.