promotion on a tmes

[hacked off in the farce]

quick one...

is it possible to get promoted on a TMES?

i have heard mixed stories about this one so thought i might aswell come straight to the orracles for this one.

[Humble Scribe]

Yes it is possible to get promoted but signing on is a different matter.

[NotAnIDOYet]

I concur, was pomoted on a lowered MES but not allowed further service. It helps if you have a good amount of time left on your current engagement, or a hope of getting upgraded at some time in the future.

[pie sandwich]

On a temp med cat you can't but when you get a perm med cat even if it is lowered you can, I had to wait until I was given a perm med cat then a few months later I was picked up.

[MrMasher]

On a temp med cat you can't but when you get a perm med cat even if it is lowered you can, I had to wait until I was given a perm med cat then a few months later I was picked up.

Incorrect.
I just have. :PDT_Xtremez_30:
Cant sign on though..............

[pie sandwich]

Fair doo's I was told by the Chf Clk that I had to wait until I got a perm med cat before I could be promoted.

[MrMasher]

Fair doo's I was told by the Chf Clk that I had to wait until I got a perm med cat before I could be promoted.

No mate.
I am on a temp downgrade, although its been extended past 18 months.
I got picked up and told I cant sign on to LOS30 because of the downgrade.

[SgtScribbly]

if you come the top of the PSL and are next in line your "case" will be passed to PMA Med (as was) for boarding. They then make the decision as to Yes/No on the promotion and also on further service - the two are not connected. If your MES is too bad to get promoted you may retain your position at the top of the PSL until you are able to gain a suitable MES for promotion.

[Odie]

I got promoted whilst on a temporarily downgraded MES of A4G3Z5, :PDT_Xtremez_21: so it does happen. :PDT_Xtremez_15:

[MyShineyAr$e]

Why are downgraded pers allowed to be promoted. I imagine a lot of them can't go OOA or indeed complete the full range of duties such as Guard, so why should they be promoted?

Case in point, Pers Admin Cpl at Cosford, exempt Guard, CCS Trg, OOA, duty outside base areas, has been temp downgraded for a substantial amount of time, yet has been promoted. Then has the cheek to refuse to waive her 90 days because it would inconvenience her.

How long can a temp downgrade last?

[Odie]

Why are downgraded pers allowed to be promoted. I imagine a lot of them can't go OOA or indeed complete the full range of duties such as Guard, so why should they be promoted?


Your ignorance speaks volumes. :PDT_Xtremez_26: Having a downgraded MES doesn't always mean that people can't do the full range of jobs. A reasonable percentage of my jolly chaps are downgraded (A4G2Z1 - me included since my "upgrade") yet all carry out the full range of duties. After a delay of a year due to my MES, I managed to get accepted to train for the job I volunteered for even though my temp MES didn't meet the criteria laid down in the book - and PMA promoted me into the job. :PDT_Xtremez_17:

I'm not denying that there are those who milk it for all it's worth, :PDT_Xtremez_25: but I haven't met many.

[MyShineyAr$e]

Your ignorance speaks volumes

How do you know what my ignorance does or doesn't do? Have you met and experienced the same lame, sick and lazy that I have?

Having a downgraded MES doesn't always mean that people can't do the full range of jobs.

Which is why I said "I imagine a lot of them...."

I'm not denying that there are those who milk it for all it's worth, but I haven't met many.

Which brings me back to my first sentence....you're obviously not at Cosford!!!

As you can probably guess, I am fed up with the amount of sickies who get rewarded for doing sweet FA because their limitations allow it. I know there are plenty with genuine reasons for their downgrading, but I'm sure if you took your rose tinted spectacles off you would see an awful lot are swinging the lead!

[Odie]

How do you know what my ignorance does or doesn't do? Have you met and experienced the same lame, sick and lazy that I have?
I guess I'm lucky to move in circles with those that have a "can do" attitude. :PDT_Xtremez_30:



Which is why I said "I imagine a lot of them...."
Luckily I deal with reality, not imagination. :PDT_Xtremez_31:



Which brings me back to my first sentence....you're obviously not at Cosford!!!
Too right I'm not. I've heard that someone imagines it's full of workshy, malingering desert dodgers. :S

[MyShineyAr$e]

Luckily I deal with reality, not imagination.

Clearly not if you think that Downgrades should be promoted. But then again you're one of them aren't you so you would support the notion.

Anyway break over, got to go and take up the slack left by some malingerers!

[Tin basher]

And moving back to the original question. Have we a definative answer yet????
Discussing the can do or won't do attitude of others we may have met doesn't answer the original query.

TB.

[tommo9999]

The definitive answer is yes, you can be promoted whilst holding a tmes.

[Odie]

Clearly not if you think that Downgrades should be promoted. But then again you're one of them aren't you so you would support the notion.

I support the notion because I've experienced it from the side of someone who's been downgraded, not as someone who hasn't. What you do is lump all those downgraded for whatever reason as a single group. Reality, as is often the case, isn't quite so black and white as you think. :PDT_Xtremez_15:
God forbid you should ever get downgraded through no fault of your own. If you do, I hope you stand by your principles and either turn down any promotion offer, pay back the x-factor portion of your pay or immediately leave the service so you don't become a burden.
When I got downgraded, I kept pestering the medicos about being upgraded - this went on for about 2 years. Even now I'm not one of your ideal A4G1Z1 master race, but quite a few people aren't but still get on with their job. During that time I was A4G3Z5, I was promoted, trained for another job, did Sqn dets, did the RAFFT, did guard and any other duty that came sailing my way. Once I got put to A4G2Z1 (still downgraded from the ideal) I picked up my share of OOA.

[hacked off in the farce]

thanks for clearing that up goaters... well the ones who stayed on topic in anycase...lol

as for myshineyar$e... what makes you think that all people who are downgraded should be treated the same? as a lower being than yourself by the sounds of it... you will find that alot of those who are downgraded are so from no fault of their own such as work related injuries, sporting injuries whilst representing the services and serious injuries and illnesses... i agree there are those individuals who milk it but why should the genuine people be punished because of those few?

i have through out my time in the farce come across a fair amount of people with the "don;t pay them as much" and "don;t promote them" attitude towards the downgraded but you'd be amazed how quickly they shift their opinions when it happens to them...

However you are all entitled to your opinions on any given topic and have the right to express them in a forum such as this, and if it makes anyone happy whinging about others then please continue to do so as i am all for happyness in the work place...

oh time for a trip to the med centre i can feel a blister coming along lol

[billy bollox]

Why are downgraded pers allowed to be promoted. I imagine a lot of them can't go OOA or indeed complete the full range of duties such as Guard, so why should they be promoted?

Case in point, Pers Admin Cpl at Cosford, exempt Guard, CCS Trg, OOA, duty outside base areas, has been temp downgraded for a substantial amount of time, yet has been promoted. Then has the cheek to refuse to waive her 90 days because it would inconvenience her.

How long can a temp downgrade last?

Can she stand up on two feet? can she watch powerpoint? Then if yes Cosford should make her do Station duties such as CCS and Guard Trg/Duties like they do in Lincs. A blanket "unfit for duty" is no longer acceptable. OOA is a different matter.

I do agree with you though, it slaps in the face of thise doing the everyday job whilst covering for those less able.

[MrMasher]

Definitely ignorant.
Tarring downgraded people with the same brush just illustrates it.
I am downgraded.
I work hard at my job and I think I am quite good at it.
Obviously I am, as I had good enough assessments to get get boarded and promoted. All whilst being downgraded.:PDT_Xtremez_15:
Some of us may be downgraded, but most of us work as hard as the rest.


Said by billy bollox:
I do agree with you though, it slaps in the face of thise doing the everyday job whilst covering for those less able.
Less able??? What exactly do you mean by less able??? I assume you are referring to the same bunch of people as MyShineyAr$e? If not then you are just being blatantly discriminatory.
Most downgraded people actually do their everyday job, if they cant its grounds for getting the boot.


Its all well and good for people to slag off others who are downgraded, but unless you know exactly what is wrong with them, how it affects them day to day, what they realistically can and cant do and unless you have evidence that they are swinging the lead then you should keep your ignorant narrow minded comments to yourselves.


Back to the questions:
Anyway, a temp downgrade lasts for 6 months. You can have 3 of these, all from your local med centre, before you have to be referred to a med board at Henlow for a permanent MES.

You can be promoted on a temp MES. ACOS refer to your med status when you get picked up by the board and see if your MES will allow you to fulfill the post they have for you.

[Downsizer]

Definitely ignorant.
Tarring downgraded people with the same brush just illustrates it.
I am downgraded.
I work hard at my job and I think I am quite good at it.
Obviously I am, as I had good enough assessments to get get boarded and promoted. All whilst being downgraded.:PDT_Xtremez_15:
Some of us may be downgraded, but most of us work as hard as the rest.


Said by billy bollox:

Less able??? What exactly do you mean by less able??? I assume you are referring to the same bunch of people as MyShineyAr$e? If not then you are just being blatantly discriminatory.
Most downgraded people actually do their everyday job, if they cant its grounds for getting the boot.


Its all well and good for people to slag off others who are downgraded, but unless you know exactly what is wrong with them, how it affects them day to day, what they realistically can and cant do and unless you have evidence that they are swinging the lead then you should keep your ignorant narrow minded comments to yourselves.


Back to the questions:
Anyway, a temp downgrade lasts for 6 months. You can have 3 of these, all from your local med centre, before you have to be referred to a med board at Henlow for a permanent MES.

You can be promoted on a temp MES. ACOS refer to your med status when you get picked up by the board and see if your MES will allow you to fulfill the post they have for you.

Can you go OOA?

[hacked off in the farce]

the majority of those who are downgraded to A4G3Z1 are fully deployable to an extent such as my case i am the aforementioned MES and i can deploy on OOA but to selective places as determined by the SMO.

so in answer to you questoin of can you go OOA? yes...

but all of those who are downgraded will have limitatons placed upon them by the medics in terms of employment... such as climatic restrictions stating no operational areas, but they can still deploy to operational support.

you have to remember that its not just those who are downgraded that get the good dets as they have to be filled by someone and if you are next then you will get the good det... and lets be honest there are just as many non op places that need to filled as there are op so i don;t see the problem really...

why should someone such as myself be made to feel bad when i along with many others have a genuine injury preventing me from performing the "soldiering" side to the military, when i can still out perform the so called "fit" people performing my trade.

i think this arguemant needs to be put into perspective not all members aof the raf who are downgraded are swinging the lead... i don't doubt for a second that these people exsist... remember that downgrading occurs for many reasons i will name a few and then see what you think after that these are genuine cases i have personally come across..

1. Pregnancy.
2. I know a guy who was downgraded to avoid missing a medical appointment and still is.
3. Injuries resulting for representing your unit, station, service or country.
4. Being allergic to nuts!!! resulting in an MD read that here
5. I have met several people who in the course of serving their country have suffered horrific injuries as a result.
6. Illnesses that are difficult to treat, or can;t be treated.
7. Slip and fall injuries

the list goes on really... but the people ignorantly making these sweeping statements that all downgraded personel are a burden on manpower, resources and the like and should be paid less and all the other crap i have read then go visit Headley Court and take a walk around and see if you broad statements still stand... don;t forget the next person to get downgraded for any reason could be you

rant over

[Downsizer]

So you can't deploy anywhere at anytime?

Ergo you are not fufilling all that is required of you...

[hacked off in the farce]

there is a difference between deployment and OOA... both are deployments

deployment is anything away from your parent unit and has no specific timeframe alloted to it... i can be deployed anywhere i know what my restrictions are so i only need authorisation if it is somewhere not on the list of no no's

OOA is a planned detachment which requires specific training prior to comencment of the task, several of which i can forefil such as any operational support station, Al Udeid, Muscat, Bahrain, Kuwait, Ali Al Salem to name a few.

So i can perform all duties expected by my TRADE day to day work as i was trained to do, however i am unable to perform the tasks expected in the "soldier" element of the military... but i have done my stints in Iraq and Afghanistan in the 8 years i have served i have spent 8 months of them in Iraq and a total of 6 months in Afghanistan so i have been there and done that and continue to serve outside the UK on Op support.

[Downsizer]

Fukk me, split hairs all you want...

You cannot go to every OOA location and you cannot fufill every possible role that an undowngraded airman can therefore you are not as much use as somebody who isn't downgraded.

[hacked off in the farce]

you can slag me off all you want to... it doesnt really phase me as i still pick up my pay check every month no differently to anyone else...

You cannot go to every OOA location and you cannot fufill every possible role that an undowngraded airman can therefore you are not as much use as somebody who isn't downgraded

the above statement just shows the level of your ignorance to the entire medical process and have clearly no idea about the reality of the work place. Being downgraded does not make anyone less useful in the work place and using OOA as a justifaction ofr your staement is lame at best as for most trade OOA comes round once every 12-18 months or so, Guard duty comes round what once in 3 years or so... and the rest of the time is spent on your primary duty nothing more... fact

[Downsizer]

Calm down son...at no point did I slag you off..

There is more to being in the RAF than the work you do at your parent unit..

And I can assure you that many trades are going OOA a lot more frequently than 12-18 months..

I think it is you living in another world...did the cortisone go to your head?:PDT_Xtremez_14:

[hacked off in the farce]

you may not have directly had a go til that final statement...

the RAF is not just about what happens on deployment... its a chain event you can not depoly anywhere if there aren;t people working at home stations nor can you be resupplied so ever job has its role...

as for the cortisone reference... thanks it worked very well

you do realise that people can serve their entire 22 year career at A4G1Z1 and still not do an OOA for various reasons so its not just us downies that don;t go.

Just for reference since my initial injury some 5 years ago i have whilst downgraded still done my fair share of time away you won't find me dodging the ball when it comes to standing up to be counted, I am proud of what i have acheived in the last few years with my rehabilitation and progression back to normal trade duties, i appreciate the fact that you are entitled to your opinions on people like me and respect that you express them in an honest yet misguided way... But with out knowing the ins and outs of a persons circumstances surrounding the downgrading what do you think gives you the right to belittle them.

[Downsizer]

the RAF is not just about what happens on deployment... its a chain event you can not depoly anywhere if there aren;t people working at home stations nor can you be resupplied so ever job has its role...

So by your logic it is okay for others to go the sh1ttier OOA to places that you can't, as long as you are doing your normal job back home...

[hacked off in the farce]

thats the way it reads yes but what i am saying is that every one plays their part i agree others might have to go to more hostile enviroments than i do, i have been on the other side of it having to go to Basra short notice (15 days) as the individual had to have surgury to lance a boil which precluded him from detachment

[Downsizer]

Jeez we're going round in circles now. I cannot beleive that you think it acceptable for others to go worse places while you carry on at home. For that simple reason you aren't as usefull as them. Enjoy civvy strasse..

IMHO if you can't fufill the entire range of possible taskings then sadly, it has to be adios..

To say that people should be allowed to stay in just because they can do a job in the UK or select overseas locations simply beggars belief...

[hacked off in the farce]

like i said you have your views and i have mine... if the military was run to your ideals then it would be even more stretched than it already is... but please feel free to air you thought to ACOS Manning they after all are the decision makers in this field.

[tommo9999]

To say that people should be allowed to stay in just because they can do a job in the UK or select overseas locations simply beggars belief...

A bit harsh there my old son. By applying your argument the Army & Navy pers who have lost limbs and are then retained in desk jobs should be kicked out because they are not fit for worldwide service.

[Odie]

A bit harsh there my old son. By applying your argument the Army & Navy pers who have lost limbs and are then retained in desk jobs should be kicked out because they are not fit for worldwide service.

Nice point Tommo. Just because someone is downgraded, it doesn't negate their knowledge and experience that they can pass on to others.

There are many who express an opinion, but not necessarily from a position of knowledge or having their own experience, but from a "Daily Mail" standpoint - if one downgraded person they know or have heard about can't undertake the full gamut of military duties, ergo, no downgraded person can undertake them. Which, to those in the know, is patently incorrect.

[Talk Wrench]

A bit harsh there my old son. By applying your argument the Army & Navy pers who have lost limbs and are then retained in desk jobs should be kicked out because they are not fit for worldwide service.


Thank you Tommo, I have refrained from posting on this one till now.


Downsizer, I really hope that you don't find yourself in a downgraded situation.


When I was downgraded and obviously before my MD, I did everything I could to get upgraded. I was diagnosed with an obscure illness , and to this day,unproven illness, that the MoD / RAF at the time, said was incompatible with RAF service. My argument was that I was still fixing aircraft competently ,safely and professionally.

My duties were completed in full and the only exception was OOA. However, the guilt that I personally felt for not being able to deploy was immense(especially after over a year of systematic psychological abuse at XXXXXXXX by the people on shift, including SNCO`s and junior officers),
during the final, deciding med board, I stated that I did not wish to become a liability to my colleagues or the RAF. And the same day, Endex.

Prior to my discharge, I did the RAFFT and passed, but it wasn't recorded because I was downgraded. I did GDT. Duty NCO etc. I did everything that the RAF wanted me to do but was held back by the medical system which puts paperwork first rather than the Airman.

I was discharged just before september the 11th 2001.



But, there are people who are fully fit and go nowhere including OOA who still get promoted because they have a good med cat, over those who are TMES.

And with limbless personnel serving, what's wrong with a person who suffers late onset diabetes from serving?


TW

[Downsizer]

A bit harsh there my old son. By applying your argument the Army & Navy pers who have lost limbs and are then retained in desk jobs should be kicked out because they are not fit for worldwide service.

A good point that i hadn't seen...and of course they should be retained, but they are special cases. However I still don't think that argument holds water in the case we were discussing here. By applying the OP's logic the fit (for want of a better word), would end up with all the rubbish dets/ooa's, and thats not right.

To TW

I'm sorry you didn't want to leave and were forced to, but you could not go OOA, which in the current climate, is "where it's at", so sadly you were not as employable as other airmen, and as you say you didn't want to be a burden, which is what person "a" becomes if they can't go OOA. I hope nothing like that happens to me but if it does, I know the rules and will have to accept it (which probably won't be easy). We all knew the score when we signed up and it may not seem to be fair, but thats life.

[MyShineyAr$e]

Guard duty comes round what once in 3 years or so

Fcuk me. Once every 3 years? That would be nice. I think any fellow Cosford pers would agree.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with people who are downgraded. I don't consider myself better than them, in fact my line manager is downgraded, and I have the utmost respect for him, his abilities and his experience. I learn alot from him; that said, he doesn't do stn duties and he cannot go out of area, which I accept is not his fault. However if we were of the same rank, and competing on the promotion board, I would be mightily hacked off if he was selected ahead of me.

I know some downgrades are a result of service, and I regret that circumstance may prevent advancement. I respect others opinions, however I am entitled to mine. I won't pay lip sevice just so someone who is downgraded doesn't get upset.

By all means if a Downgraded pers is good enough in their primary duty to be promoted then they should be, as soon as possible after upgrading.

[billy bollox]

Definitely ignorant.
Tarring downgraded people with the same brush just illustrates it.
I am downgraded.
I work hard at my job and I think I am quite good at it.
Obviously I am, as I had good enough assessments to get get boarded and promoted. All whilst being downgraded.:PDT_Xtremez_15:
Some of us may be downgraded, but most of us work as hard as the rest.


Said by billy bollox:

Less able??? What exactly do you mean by less able??? I assume you are referring to the same bunch of people as MyShineyAr$e? If not then you are just being blatantly discriminatory.
Most downgraded people actually do their everyday job, if they cant its grounds for getting the boot.


Its all well and good for people to slag off others who are downgraded, but unless you know exactly what is wrong with them, how it affects them day to day, what they realistically can and cant do and unless you have evidence that they are swinging the lead then you should keep your ignorant narrow minded comments to yourselves.


Back to the questions:
Anyway, a temp downgrade lasts for 6 months. You can have 3 of these, all from your local med centre, before you have to be referred to a med board at Henlow for a permanent MES.

You can be promoted on a temp MES. ACOS refer to your med status when you get picked up by the board and see if your MES will allow you to fulfill the post they have for you.

If you'd bothered to read the note PROPERLY, then you'll see I'm refering to those who rely on a FMED 566 to get out of stuff like Guard etc. The Doc should be annotating on there what can or can't be c/o as part of their normal duty, not just a straight sick off duties!!
I never ask what is downgrading anyone, not my business. But it is up to those in the medical trade to decide just exactly what the extent of duties a person can do. My lass is downgraded but does all duties inc Guards, CCS etc so don't blow off your top at me without reading posts acurately
High horse or what!!

[Talk Wrench]

It seems to me, that the BIG issue is with the medical system and not the majority of personnel who fall into its remit.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The medical system that the RAF employs is outdated and unfit for purpose. It needs a major overhaul.


TW

[MyShineyAr$e]

Totally agree with you TW. But in this age of "where there's a blame there's a claim', the medical profession surely wouldn't entertain such an overhaul for fear of lawsuits?

[MrMasher]

The Z marker that downgraded people have, particularly the Z5 UK based marker isnt to excuse them from sh1tty OOA's. It is because they are undergoing treatment and need to stay UK based to take advantage of the wonderfully quick and efficient service the NHS provide.
I asked to have mine changed and the answer no was given for that reason.

[MrMasher]

Can you go OOA?

I wish I could. I have itchy feet for it.

[effinhell]

Surely it's down to what limitations you have - simply saying sorry sir i am downgraded is not good enough. I for one would check their TMES chit as to exactly what it says they can and cannot do and seek clarification if required.

Some people do go OOA whilst downgraded and whilst this may not be to the 'proper' places that people think at least they are in the 'system' and doing something towards turnround times.

If someone who is downgraded for a while gets promoted then it is not just on their performance during the period of downgrading is it?

The system is outdated and crap, as soon as medical issue is apparent no-one seems to want to question it. I personally think you should be offered promotion when you return to 'full' fitness though - bit of an incentive too.

IT IS NOT ALWAYS THE FAULT OF THE PERSON WHO IS DOWNGRADED!

[MrMasher]

Surely it's down to what limitations you have - simply saying sorry sir i am downgraded is not good enough. I for one would check their TMES chit as to exactly what it says they can and cannot do and seek clarification if required.

Some people do go OOA whilst downgraded and whilst this may not be to the 'proper' places that people think at least they are in the 'system' and doing something towards turnround times.

If someone who is downgraded for a while gets promoted then it is not just on their performance during the period of downgrading is it?

The system is outdated and crap, as soon as medical issue is apparent no-one seems to want to question it. I personally think you should be offered promotion when you return to 'full' fitness though - bit of an incentive too.[/I]

[I]IT IS NOT ALWAYS THE FAULT OF THE PERSON WHO IS DOWNGRADED!

That wouldnt work. Once you are downgraded you are at the mercy of the NHS. It then doesnt matter on how insistent the person is about being fixed and upgraded, you have to wait for the system to get around to it.
We should be fast tracked through the NHS in my opinion, that only happens at the moment if you are pinged for OOA and then develop a problem. It sucks.

[The Stig A.D.I.]

I've just read through the thread - interesting, however, aren't we all forgetting something?

CONGRATULATIONS MR MASHER!

See you in the Mess!

:PDT_Xtremez_30:

[MrMasher]

I've just read through the thread - interesting, however, aren't we all forgetting something?

CONGRATULATIONS MR MASHER!

See you in the Mess!

:PDT_Xtremez_30:

He he he!:PDT_Xtremez_15:
My crimplenes are on order!:PDT_Xtremez_30:

[PingDit]

He he he!:PDT_Xtremez_15:
My crimplenes are on order!:PDT_Xtremez_30:

Off TopicDon't forget to draw patterns down the side of your plain socks, get some fluffy chequered slippers and an old dressing gown that still smells of pi55 from the Oxfam shop. If you can't find any bits and pieces, I've got loads spare. Congratulations.

[Nuts]

Why are downgraded pers allowed to be promoted. I imagine a lot of them can't go OOA or indeed complete the full range of duties such as Guard, so why should they be promoted?

Case in point, Pers Admin Cpl at Cosford, exempt Guard, CCS Trg, OOA, duty outside base areas, has been temp downgraded for a substantial amount of time, yet has been promoted. Then has the cheek to refuse to waive her 90 days because it would inconvenience her.

How long can a temp downgrade last?


Yeah and she's ****!!!!

[effinhell]

yip!!!!!!!!